Disastrous start with new boat, need some advice.

[tonto]

Simon,

I applaud you coming here to put your point of view across, as It cannot be easy after some pretty tough comments were made before you entered the debate, which may have made some peoples minds up already.

I myself have not had any dealings with your company, and cannot speak from experience, and can only go on what others, and yourself have written on this thread.

I was not trying to be rude or acidic, it was a question that came to me after reading your response, which you have answered, which in itself leads to further questions.

As a major importer and high profile business, (I have seen your company advertised in a number of places) then your reputation is important to you, and I would have thought it important that all of your products would be thoroughly PDI'ed before sending out to a customer. In any event mistakes happen, and in this case if the boat was wrong, and the engine right, maybe a new boat could have been ordered, or a different engine sourced, if it is able to fit in a boot of a car, but at all times being able to keep friendly, calm, and factual communications open is important for all sides.

People may jump to conclusions rightly or wrongly if they are not in possession of all the facts, or feel that something is being withheld.

I can only speak as a prospective customer ( aren't we all?) and a good after sales service is very important to me rather than the lowest possible price.

Being defensive and trying to justify some decisions, that on the comments here, might seem a bit suspect is not showing us what positive steps you will do to correct the situation with regards to the PDI checks and some of the earlier comments made.

I hope you are able to resolve this issue, and wish you success in the future.

[Rokraider]

This is not intended as a criticism of Highman Marine, who I have not had any dealings with, so no axe to grind.

It is just that the subject matter has piqued my interest.

Presumably, to get the CE mark etc the Ribs are tested as a finished production article? When a transom is modified by an agent, would that not invalidate the testing? Which could presumably have a knock on with any insurance claim if the modification was implicated in a claim. I guess it would also affect the warranty issued by the manufacturer?

I modify vehicles for a living and this is always a difficult area. We issue an engineers report, which generally keeps the insurance company happy and if it is very oddball, they will send their own engineer down before agreeing to insure it.
I wondered whether the same is needed for boats?

[poulner6]

Simon, as a business owner as stated before, If it was me!! I would without and further issues over this, collect and fully refund the customer, firstly. Then show the forum and many members that you can and will do right, hands up it’s a complete cock up, BUT the cock up is not the problem you face right now. You need to show ALL how a company can and SHOULD put this right. A written apology in the next issue of Powerboat & Rib magazine to all readers, you need to get saving grace now, no more kicking from each sided, time to re-solve and show you can accept an error. The choice is left in your hand, make a company out of this of face an unforeseen future, If I was in your shoes, I would be doing this without any further hesitation... Show the forum you can come out with some pride, and keep customer service your number one focus.
Good Luck to both parties.

Jason.

[bobthebiker]

Hi
Have been to the RNLI´s Inshore Lifeboat Center where all the inshore boats are built and if my memory serves me well i went to the Isle of Wight not China!!

Bob

[simonhigham]

hi landlockedpirate

thanks for your considered (in the most part) opinion

but i think this remark is un-called for and quite un-fair:
"justification for letting your apprentice loose with a jigsaw and a tube of silkaflex on the transom."
although slightly amusing i must admit.

if you know us then you know we would only offer this option if we were 100% certain that the strength and safety of the craft is in no way compromised, and as we have done it many times over a number of years, it is proven to be as strong or stronger than long shaft, and completely water tight. i make no excuse for this work as none is warranted. i will be doing one next week for a customer, and i will post the procedure here with images for your appraisal.

the outboard paintwork (as i immediately admitted on inspection of the images) is sub standard and should not have been allowed out. for which, i apologise un-reservedly. The week up to bank holiday is always hectic, and the paintwork was not checked carefully by one of the engineers before Chris collected on saturday. so hands up there.

hi thomas and tonto
thanks for your remarks, you are both of course right, positive feedback is nice, but you dont need to know when you are going right. i will certainly make sure QC is tightened even further in future. and heed all genuine comments as they are meant - as constructive

you both make an interesting point about pdi'ing the inflatables though, i would like to ask any other inflatable boat retailers on here for their feedback on a point you and a couple of others have raised and that is: do you open and check inflatables before sending them out?
we do not as they are all inflated for 1 week then pressure tested and QC checked at the factory before boxing up.

tonto: of course i am defensive - this business is my pride and joy and my customers are my lifeblood, i didnt sleep a wink last night with worry. we get at least 50% of our new business through recommendation, it is the thing i work hardest for so to say this barrage has come as a shock is an understatement.

Chris
you're obviously not satisfied with the service you have received form us and i completely understand why. i am trying my hardest to see you right. the RNLI dont use our boats, the fire brigade do, my dad doesnt deal with the inflatables so he wouldnt know that, if you want proof that the fire brigade use long shaft transoms on their seapro boats i can show one to you, or give you the contact details of the chief water rescue trainer if its important to you. that however, doesnt explain why we have a whole batch of long shaft 430HD's here now though. that was a mistake in the manufacture. i once again apologise for the paint work on the engine, that's not good enough.

Rokraider: good question, the CE certificate does not bare reference to the shaft length, but the 430HD was originally made and CE tested as short shaft, so the swamp test and load test was done with the short shaft transom.

Jason: when chris called me on tuesday morning, after he had described the faults i asked him what he would like to do, he said that he wanted to bring the whole outfit back for a full refund, i immediately agreed to this with no hesitation. that was before i heard from a friend in the trade about this thread. the right thing had already been done. i firmly believe, in business and in life you should treat others as you would have them treat you.

i hope this covers everything, i'm going for a lie down

best regards

simon

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by simonhigham

.....

Pikey Dave:

i don't think thats a fair comment so i will not answer that. i am not in the business of trying to fob people off with anything

........

fob2
fɒb/
verb
verb: fob; 3rd person present: fobs; past tense: fobbed; past participle: fobbed; gerund or present participle: fobbing
deceitfully attempt to satisfy someone by making excuses or giving them something inferior.
"I was fobbed off with bland reassurances"
synonyms: put off, stall, give someone the runaround, deceive; More
give (someone) something inferior to or different from what they want.
"the second-rate products fobbed off on many beer-drinkers"
synonyms:impose, palm off, unload, dump, get rid of, foist, offload, inflict, thrust;

Simon, by Ribnet standards, this has been a measured & balanced thread. You've been handed a perfect opportunity to put things right & go some way to restoring your reputation. IMHO, however, you blew it.


Scent from my iBone sow iguana any typos whore bed spillings

[Rokraider]

Originally Posted by simonhigham

Rokraider: good question, the CE certificate does not bare reference to the shaft length, but the 430HD was originally made and CE tested as short shaft, so the swamp test and load test was done with the short shaft transom.

Simon: Not being in the boat business, I am not familiar with what the CE testing involves.
I was pondering whether chopping about structual parts of the boat had any bearing on the CE mark, if it is done after manufacture and hence has not been subjected to the test and inspection that gained the boat the CE approval in the first place?
I understand what you are saying regarding the swamp test etc, but I was looking at it from a structual point of view.

I think stuctually modifying boats is an interesting question and will start a new thread elsewhere rather than in here.

[boristhebold]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Hold your horses Boris! He's apparently already been offered a full refund.

Great result, thats the way I would go, full refund and go elsewhere, may avoid more issues in the long run.

[poulner6]

If Simon has agreed with the customer, does this need to carry on, let them sort this out and lets all move on, hopefully this is a wake up call for the future...

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by simonhigham

i would like to ask any other inflatable boat retailers on here for their feedback on a point you and a couple of others have raised and that is: do you open and check inflatables before sending them out?
we do not as they are all inflated for 1 week then pressure tested and QC checked at the factory before boxing up.

Well, considering you also stated:

i bent over backwards for you during the chinese hull problems you had. I ended up £3000 out of pocket on your boat alone, but i still kept my word to you.
andy hadden: your boat was from the same batch as steves and we refunded you in full aswell. this chinese manufacturer took us for over £20,000 and nearly put us out of business

It would seem to me that, as a business owner, if you have experienced problems with manufacturers before, it may behoove you to start assembling and checking things, rather than acting as a reseller and simply forwarding manufacturers boxes.

One question I have: Is the "package" you sell simply a collection of components that should work together, or is it a complete working boat? I get the impression from this thread that it is the former. If that's the case, that would seem to be inviting problems (perhaps evidenced by the OP's experience?)

jky

[gotchiguy]

Originally Posted by simonhigham

you both make an interesting point about pdi'ing the inflatables though, i would like to ask any other inflatable boat retailers on here for their feedback on a point you and a couple of others have raised and that is: do you open and check inflatables before sending them out?
we do not as they are all inflated for 1 week then pressure tested and QC checked at the factory before boxing up.

I'm not sure the pressure testing and quality is what they are suggesting you check (although with these Chinese ribs you never can be too sure..), rather that what you are selling matches the description you give it: be that short/long shaft or containing the accessories/not.

For what it's worth I visited Bill Higham marine a few years ago looking for something specific and though I didn't end up purchasing from them they were perfectly helpful in looking for this item for me.

Although we did have the Chinese rib debacle with a couple of members a couple of years ago a quick Google search for "Bill Higham Marine" or "Bill Higham Marine reviews" brings up only positive messages. I would suggest that this is the way you want to keep it, these days a dissatisfied customer with access to the internet wields a very powerful weapon. You are lucky in that you clearly have a strong past reputation however many more threads like these and Google results will quickly turn to highlighting these threads. As they always say - you only hear about the bad ones. I can't believe that it is an insignificant proportion of your customers who check ribnet or at least google before making a purchase for you, small businesses can really suffer from poor online reviews.

The important thing is that you move on from this and demonstrate better quality control procedures in future. Who handed over the engine to the OP? If it was anyone other than the "new spray guy" himself then why didn't they raise it when they physically handed it over?

One point: I know the OP mentioned that BHM stated that the RNLIs use SeaPros, perhaps as a new boater he may have confused that fact that the engine is ex RNLI and thats all BHM were stating? I know BHM seem to sell a lot of the ex RNLI engines on Seapros.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by gotchiguy

Although we did have the Chinese rib debacle with a couple of members a couple of years ago a quick Google search for "Bill Higham Marine" or "Bill Higham Marine reviews" brings up only positive messages.

And yet I would expect (from years of experience here) that a search on RIBnet would yield a rather different outcome. I am becoming increasingly suspicious about online reviews - especially having seen first hand the efforts some folk will go to and knowing that it is much easier to get people to post criticism than praise.

[gotchiguy]

Originally Posted by Poly

And yet I would expect (from years of experience here) that a search on RIBnet would yield a rather different outcome.

Well that's what I first wrote - expecting to find that a google search would throw negative things up. But it shows up ybw and ribnet with generally positive messages from multiple well posted members.

From my experience on here I too would have expected BHM to come out negatively on a search but I must admit, a lot was positive...

So that results in the conclusion that: only established members are aware of the issues with BHM and therefore newbies searching on google or ribnet will only find good things and therefore be taken for a ride...hmmmm....

[simonhigham]

Poly and Gotchiguy,
i understand your scepticism, i suppose after all, we are ultimately an island of cynical buggers aren't we?
i would just pose this question to you: how have we stayed in business for 40 years in Manchester, 35 miles from the nearest water if we don't offer excellent service and knowledgeable advice? we have very few boats around us here, yet people come from all over the country to have their engines repaired by us. Our customers include G.Mc'r fire, Southport Lifeboat, lots of dive and sailing clubs, so not all leisure boaters. I am most proud however of the fantastic business that we enjoy from Harris, Lewis and the other Hebridean islands, also Shetland and Orkney, each new customer to call us from these islands have the same answer when asked why they have chosen us... recommendation.
I have grown up around boats, have been an outboard mechanic since the age of 15 when i started to help my dad out at weekends (usually to help pay off my motocross bikes), i spend every weekend on a boat, or in the water around Anglesey with my young family, bloody hell thats 22 years!!?? My father Bill was the youngest chief engineer in the merchant navy before he left to settle down and start a family, he then got a job as the chrysler outboards field agent for sowester before starting up for himself as an outboard repair guy in 1975, 40 years on he is still working full time (although this year i have managed to get him to take a thursday off every once in a while) so i think it safe to say that he does know a thing or two about outboards, he is the brightest engineer i have ever met, he can (to coin a phrase from my grandfather) "make metal go the way he wants it" and whilst i am not half the engineer he is, i have managed to pick up a few scraps from the countless hours i have spent repairing outboards, fitting outboards to boats, using outboards on boats, losing the skin from my knuckles trying to undo seized powerhead bolts in the dead of winter when i can't feel my fingers, cursing outboards for their very existence, cursing ole evinrude for inventing the damn things in the first place, then falling in love with them again every spring when it's time to get back on the water. you get the picture!
what i suppose i'm getting at is, if you really want to get to know our company, that you may pass judgement on us, please just give us a call, ask for me for outboards or boat sales, my brother in law Darren for outboard repairs, or my father for outboard parts. try us out, we are friendly and open, and have even been known to be jocular when pushed!
finally i don't blame ChrisA at all for asking advice on this forum its a great medium for help, but i do however blame people for jumping on this bandwagon whom we have never dealt with and know nothing of our history, in making their voice heard just for the sake of it which serves no useful purpose whatsoever.
if there is anybody still reading this after such a lengthy monologue, for a laugh, and because you deserve it for persisting so long, if you want to buy anything or have any outboard work done, i will give you something free if you mention this thread. i'm thinking a bottle of oil, or a fuel line, or some flush muffs that sort of thing, give me a try!
be safe in boating
simon

[Chris Caton]

I read it all Simon, must agree boating round Anglesey is the best

[Poly]

Originally Posted by simonhigham

if there is anybody still reading this after such a lengthy monologue, for a laugh, and because you deserve it for persisting so long, if you want to buy anything or have any outboard work done, i will give you something free if you mention this thread. i'm thinking a bottle of oil, or a fuel line, or some flush muffs that sort of thing, give me a try!
be safe in boating
simon

Simon, we're happy for you to post your response to the original posts but there is a fine line before you cross into commercial posting and need trade membership (http://www.rib.net/forum/misc.php?do...ork&page=rules). In the spirit of your last post though if you do sign up as trade member I'll throw in a free lesson in how to use these keys:

[simonhigham]

Originally Posted by Poly

Simon, we're happy for you to post your response to the original posts but there is a fine line before you cross into commercial posting and need trade membership (http://www.rib.net/forum/misc.php?do...ork&page=rules). In the spirit of your last post though if you do sign up as trade member I'll throw in a free lesson in how to use these keys:

Lol thanks for that - really lightened the mood!!
Guess i got carried away there, i will pm you about membership.
Simon

[SIBer]

I enjoyed reading all that so thanks all.

Hand up, I bought my used outboard off Simon at BH. I'd read all the reviews about the old church and thought on balance they were safer than a punt off ebay.
Engine was overpriced but buying from a "stealer" gave some comeback this being my first outboard. A fully serviced with new impeller etc from a named dealer appealed to me. Tohatsu 9.8 2 smoke are rare so supply and demand applied. I got 15 mins of advice from one of their lads about how to start it, look after it, adjust it etc whilst it was running in their tank in a demo for me. That advice was worth the extra few quid as a newbie. A new tank and line and a new spare kill cord was also included. Simon threw in an "out of date at your own risk smoke flare" as he had none in stock for me to purchase. 6 months warranty was also given rather than the standard 3 which covered my first season but no need to claim on it as it ran sweet.

All in all (very) pricey but after 3 years the motor has been bob on.

A couple of weeks ago a yachty was asking about my motor and how heavy it was etc. I explained it was from Bill Highwayman. The old sea dog immediatly defended BH as being scruffy and pricey but decent. I had to agree.

We all drop the ball and learn a lesson from time to time.

Bill built his business on reputation and advertising from what I read. Simon is continuing in the world of the internet where you are only as good as your last sale and review sites ensure business' live or die.

Qudos for coming on Ribnet Simon. Trade membership may cost a few bob but lots of customers are in here including me. I suppose I'd better have a proper service and impeller change done after 3 years

[Barrowboy]

Originally Posted by SIBer

. Simon threw in an "out of date at your own risk smoke flare" as he had none in stock for me to purchase.

Speechless.

[matt h]

I could not Believe that, A main dealer so say and throwing in an out of date Flare....