Dive flag campaign

[Johnscubanut]

Agree! I think the current A flag is ample if people know just what it means? 'Divers down, keep clear & at low speed'
I have seen over many years, even BSAC dive boats displaying their flag whilst underway or even when they have returned to the slipway. They just forget sometimes. One time we arrived on a dive site with a huge rib (commercial operator) who had divers down & no flag whatsoever displayed! I mentioned to the Cox'n & he just shrugged his shoulders! I think in a court of law he would be procecuted!
The majority of the boating public do not know what the red & white international flag or the blue & white 'A' flag means, so education, education, education etc.

[jeffstevens763@g]

i was once up e tree cutting a large branch off when I saw a woman directly below shouting up at me I stopped cutting turned the chainsaw off she said can I come through here I shook my head and said no that's why we have a fence 50m around it with a sign every 5m saying tree felling do not enter! People just don't think before they act typical one is drivers runing red lights on level crossings.

[jyasaki]

Clarification of my earlier post: California does not require dive ops to have a flag to be flown (alpha or diver down.) If you choose to do so, it, by law has to be a "rigid, 1 meter replica, visible from any angle" (I suspect this is for the alpha flag, and for commercial dive ops - hardhat divers.) That would mean 3 one meter by .83 meter boards or similar, mounted in a triangle - a little unwieldy for the average recreational boater. Flying both doubles that to an alpha and diver down triple replica.

Flying a dive flag of any sort while underway (i.e. not diving) is citeable. $76 if you get popped.

Other boaters are advised to use caution around boats flying a flag, but are not required to. An accident on the offending boats part leaves them subject to a $135 fine.

Short version: California law as it pertains to recreational diving is in serious need of a rewrite.

jky

[gtb]

Maybe just me, but I am left wondering why the flag has three red lines rather than a closed triangle.

The warning triangles I'm familiar with are all closed shapes. <shrug/>

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Chunk

I'm not saying I'm in favour or against the design, just that I think what we have today doesn't work and it may be time to look at alternatives.

Originally Posted by gtb

Maybe just me, but I am left wondering why the flag has three red lines rather than a closed triangle.

The warning triangles I'm familiar with are all closed shapes. <shrug/>

Not just you. If they want it to be "immediately recognisable" then use the standard shape - not a butchered triangle. Actually they would be probably be better with a Yellow/Black triangle as per industrial safety rather than red/white we see on the roads.

I think it would also be interesting to measure whether a simple (!) in triangle (simple non specific warning) rather than a picture people are trying to interpret was more effective. If there was a 1m high black / yellow (!) triangle on a boat I certainly wouldn't be getting too close...

However I think it is irrelevant as I am sure many of the people who go too close do know what the flag means - or can make a pretty good guess if asked to think about it for a minute - they just aren't looking out for it, and are in their own wee zone enjoying their day out.

[SpearRib]

I dont know what its like overseas but I know here I still get guys blatting by. I think half the battle is education.

[ashbypower]

Nothing wrong with the "A" flag, and its re-enforced within maritime law. As others have said its education... as well as observation..

[scubaqua]

This is how I let other boater know there is/are a diver(s) down...
In my opnion the only way it should be...
And yes, take it away when everybody is on board..

[BruceB]

Even as a diver myself I can't see the point of a new flag other than as a money making exercise for the company.
I fly a medium sized A flag from the top of the A frame when diving anywhere I think it may be required. If I think there will be a lot of traffic I change it to a full ship size one which is about a 1/3 of the length of the RIB, nobody misses that one!

[boristhebold]

A lot of negative comments directed at boat users on this topic, I agree with education, education, education bit and dont really think the flag needs re inventing. However I do think that the education bit also applies to the dive boat operators, I see many dive operations around swanage bay and very often the dive boats will be flying the diver down flag but are also very often quite a way from the actuall divers due to drift dives and the need to pick up multiple divers.

So my point is the dive flag isnt much good if the dive boat is say for example in middle of swanage bay and the actual divers are spread out and could be as far away as say just off old harry rocks, any leisure boaters coming from poole end will not see the dive boat and flag, often they don't see the divers until very late.

so more than one issue on this, flags are no use if no where near the actual diver.

[Ovey]

I agree that dive operators also need to comply as much as everyone else on the water, and this includes lowering the flag when divers are safely back onboard.

With regards to a drift dive, by its very nature divers will get spread out (and may go off in different directions based on current, eddy's, etc underwater). The dive skipper should brief all divers to immediately send up their blob (delayed surface marker buoy) on reaching the bottom. This way the dive boat flies the A flag to warn other vessels that there are divers down, and this should then "hone" the awareness of skippers to look out for DSMBs in the vicinity of the A flag.

It isn't always possible to stay directly over the divers as even on a wreck dive with little or no current the divers spread out and then can drift away from the wreck on the ascent.

[Chunk]

Did a quick straw poll at work - very unscientific :
17 people

• 3 dive
• 2 kayak
• 3 sail dinghies
• 2 Ribnobbers (PB2 & Adv PB)
• 3 sail yachts (1x Day, 1x Coastal YM, 1x Offsh YM).
• Some do multiple so it works out as 8 water users, 9 non water users.

None of the 9 non water users knew the alpha flag

• 3 of the 8 water users knew the alpha flag - all were divers
• 5 water users who didn't know were qualified: PB2, kayak, dinghy, Coastal YM (again some did multiple things)

All 17 drive and all 17 recognised that the Triangle indicated a warning. Some did say that they'd probably approach the boat flying the flag to ask what it meant...kind of negating the point

Education is key, but in this very narrow poll even for educated water users the message isn't clear unless you activly participate in diving. Is it working.

[Ovey]

Interesting that only 3 of 8 divers knew the A flag! Do they dive independently or with dive operations? I'd like to think that the dive operator (if used) uses the A flag, but maybe not.

I still believe a wider education is key. A picture of the A flag, and how to behave around it at all marinas, slipways and regular water access points would help.

Maybe even a flyer put out with insurance documents with common flags/warning markers? This would need the buy-in of insurance companies, but could be done since hitting a diver through being too close will result in a claim?!

[Chunk]

Sorry Ovey, my typing. Only 3 divers and all knew the flag. There are 8 water users.

Like the idea of the flag at marinas.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by JamesF

a sheet of plywood with "Divers. Keep well clear" painted on it in eighteen inch lettering.

Realistically, that probably does far more good than the A flag.

[boristhebold]

All good suggestions, perhaps marking on charts 'dive areas' for the most common dive areas around would help. But lets get real, may boaters never buy a chart let alone look at em, as to noticies in marinas, ive seen lots on wearing life jackets and kill cords (in the marinas) and still see many more people not wearing them.

education is great I just dont think the people who need the education will get the message because they just arn't bothered or no incentive to get trained.

I was watching a TV documentary about richard bransons neckar island resort the other night, many nice ribs including scorpions in use and lots of water sports, only saw kill cord in use once and no lifejackets worn at any time, which surprised me due to high value worth of the people and celebs who visit that island.

So this dive flag issue is maybe a good or a bad idea, someone else made the comment about it may make people go nearer the boat to see what it is which cant be a good idea, so not sure.

We all seem to go round in circles on safety aspects and education, maybe the only thing which would change peoples behaviours is if boat insurance was mandatory and if you got boat training you could get a large discount off that insurance at various levels, so maybe insurance companies should increase thecost of boat insurance but actively provide bigger discounts based on training, PB2 25% discount off insurance, Intermediate 35% off, Advanced 50% off etc etc.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by boristhebold

We all seem to go round in circles on safety aspects and education, maybe the only thing which would change peoples behaviours is if boat insurance was mandatory and if you got boat training you could get a large discount off that insurance at various levels, so maybe insurance companies should increase thecost of boat insurance but actively provide bigger discounts based on training, PB2 25% discount off insurance, Intermediate 35% off, Advanced 50% off etc etc.

Or maybe since actuaries are actually very good with numbers there is actually little benefit?

Despite the fact that apparently nobody knows what the A-flag means and loads of dive boats aren't bothering to fly it - diver v's unrelated boat serious injuries are very rare; especially compared to the other risks of diving.

[The Gurnard]

Hey.but lets get real Poly..I have never bought a chart in my life..so I must be very likely to injure a diver

I guess only 6 foot tall..fair haired and blue eyed skippers should be allowed boats