Do paper charts still have a place on ribs?

[GuyC]

I think the general consensus is that carrying paper charts on board isn't always essential from a safety perspective nowadays.

With a route on a chartplotter, there is absolutely no need to know where you are, you can just follow the waypoints and if you have enough back ups, then you'll always be able to remain on the route.

It might be perfectly safe but it is a bit dull. I often, although not always, carry a chart as I quite like the situational awareness it gives me.

[ShinyShoe]

Following a route is fine.
It's the ability to deviate from the route that you need to consider... Emergency, weather, traffic, another boat in trouble, something unexpected that you just want to visit...

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Following a route is fine.
It's the ability to deviate from the route that you need to consider... Emergency, weather, traffic, another boat in trouble, something unexpected that you just want to visit...

And how will a paper chart help with that exactly?

[jeffstevens763@g]

Does anyone use ordinance survey maps too when exploring the coast?

[jambo]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Does anyone use ordinance survey maps too when exploring the coast?

Hi Jeff. Donny does.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by jambo

Hi Jeff. Donny does.

He does Billy the only one I know that does, it works for him really well

[willk]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

He does Billy the only one I know that does, it works for him really well

Well, using one and navigating by one are two different things. I've always felt that charts leave the Coaster totally in the dark as regards what you might find yourself looking at - the old charts had the decency to show a view of the coastal profile. If visiting a new island or landfall, I like to drop into an OS to get the "lay of the land" first - cos yeah, it definitely does help get your bearings in advance.

Someone in the know told me that Donnie has the 1967 Shell Guide to Scotland (with Authorised Lube Stations) laminated under his cushion...

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by willk

Authorised Lube Stations...

It's the unauthorised ones you have to be careful of.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by jakew009

And how will a paper chart help with that exactly?

Primarily because you're not trying to scroll around on a 7" (smaller and bigger ones are available) screen.

[lakelandterrier]

I think if you carry numerous electronic devices (but 1 plotter takes up a lot of the face of my console anyway) and you put all your faith in "tech" then you don't NEED to carry charts.

As others have said I like to look at paper charts as they give the wider picture than a screen display, and updating them is rather theraputic - how regularly do people update their electronic charts?

Do I often get a chart out on the boat - no. do I look at them at home to get a feel for the wider area, or particular places yes.

There are some places -especially where the water's shallow I'd probably want the chart as a reference.

My reference is single point of failure....if the screen on my plotter went (electronic failure or something cracking it) in an area I didn't know I'd be happier with a paper chart to refer to.

I wear a PLB on my LJ and carry LED flare an floating smoke I hope I never have to use them, but they are there just in case.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by GuyC

Primarily because you're not trying to scroll around on a 7" (smaller and bigger ones are available) screen.

How is using a massive folded out chart on a rib practical? I get it on a cruising boat with a table, but on an open rib?

Serious question, I just can’t comprehend trying to break out a typical chart and start plotting my position on a rib with a compass... it just seems ridiculous.

Especially if you are dealing with a disaster that has somehow wiped out your entire electrical system.

[GuyC]

The leisure folios are A2 so one fold gets them to a manageable size.

I don't think you need some disaster to justify having a chart on board. They still perform a useful function.

With multiple back up systems, do you need charts on board for safety reasons? - No

Do paper charts offer a useful benefit - in circumstances where you would benefit from increased situational awareness, yes.

In addition - what chart plotter stops you getting fish and chip grease stains on your waterproofs?

[willk]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Especially if you are dealing with a disaster that has somehow wiped out your entire electrical system.

Like a short or bad copper?

This thread has drawn my interest, because I actually fall on both sides of the line.

I have 2 plotters - so one will act as a backup if one fails, but also to provide a "wide" perspective where needed.
I have Navionics on my phone, and a charger and cable to run it at the helm if needed.
I have basic charts of the current area, a handheld compass and dividers - granted I can sit inside and work up a plan, but you could do it on deck if ya hadda.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by GuyC

The leisure folios are A2 so one fold gets them to a manageable size.

I don't think you need some disaster to justify having a chart on board. They still perform a useful function.

With multiple back up systems, do you need charts on board for safety reasons? - No

Do paper charts offer a useful benefit - in circumstances where you would benefit from increased situational awareness, yes.

In addition - what chart plotter stops you getting fish and chip grease stains on your waterproofs?

I think we can agree to both agree and agree to disagree at the same time

We can agree that charts were of dubious safety benefit 20 years ago, and today they are really low on the list of essential safety things to have on board.

However, we can agree to disagree on the relative merits of a printed chart versus a screen. I’ll stick to the iPad Pro and navionics app. In fact I’m lying in bed at the moment plotting a north Cornwall cruise ��

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by willk

Like a short or bad copper?

This thread has drawn my interest, because I actually fall on both sides of the line.

I have 2 plotters - so one will act as a backup if one fails, but also to provide a "wide" perspective where needed.
I have Navionics on my phone, and a charger and cable to run it at the helm if needed.
I have basic charts of the current area, a handheld compass and dividers - granted I can sit inside and work up a plan, but you could do it on deck if ya hadda.

Wouldn’t a ‘short or bad copper’ also render most fly by wire engines inoperable? Why is a plotter any more likely to suffer a wiring fault than an electronic throttle binnacle?

And if you suspected dodgy wiring on your boat, wouldn’t it be better to fix it?

I have no problem with people carrying paper charts and compasses and dividers and sextants etc; my problem was more the insinuation that you are somehow unsafe if you dared to head to see without carrying a paper chart.

Conversely, they have no safety benefit what so ever in my opinion. The money spent on charts could be much better spent a on a plb.

My boat doesn’t even have a manual compass but like you I like lots of screen space

[willk]

Originally Posted by jakew009

My boat doesn’t even have a manual compass

Lost you there dude - the good ones are magnetic...

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by willk

Lost you there dude - the good ones are magnetic...

I think mine is magnetic...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Wouldn’t a ‘short or bad copper’ also render most fly by wire engines inoperable? Why is a plotter any more likely to suffer a wiring fault than an electronic throttle binnacle?

possibly - although might depend how it’s wired... but your question was about charts - not should you trust your fly by wire throttle!

And if you suspected dodgy wiring on your boat, wouldn’t it be better to fix it?

of course - but presumably nothing has ever failed on your boat? Because right until that moment it was working fine.

have no problem with people carrying paper charts and compasses and dividers and sextants etc; my problem was more the insinuation that you are somehow unsafe if you dared to head to see without carrying a paper chart.

but you’d already made your mind up about that before asking other people’s opinion hadn’t you?

Conversely, they have no safety benefit what so ever in my opinion. The money spent on charts could be much better spent a on a plb.

I doubt anyone who has spent the amount you have on redundancy is making choices between spending some money on charts and a plb.

Originally Posted by jakew009

I think the point of the thread was to challenge the assertion that a paper chart is still somehow an essential safety item for a sea passage.







This is an interesting point (and sorry to pick on your post - others have said the same thing). Why would your electronics play up?



If your boat is safely wired with some sensible redundancy, the only thing that is going to make them ‘play up’ is a major component failure which is extremely unlikely. A backup makes this a non issue.



If your boat has regular electrical gremlins - why is it going to sea in the first place in a situation where a paper chart would be an essential piece of safety equipment? Would you go to sea if you thought your engine might ‘play up’?







On the contrary, most boats on the water will have multiple smart phones which are far more powerful than any chart plotter on the market today and conveniently gave a totally self contained power backup system.

id guess most are not treated with the care you’d expect from a safety critical system and many people will not have taken the steps you have to ensure they have the app and maps downloaded etc.

The chance of all the worlds gps systems failing simultaneously? Almost zero (don’t forget modern gps receivers are picking up gps, glonass, beidou, and galileo).



And if they did fail? You’d still have a functional chart plotter that would be far more useful than any paper chart.

I suspect you are underestimating the risk - probably not of some random glitch but intentional attack, or government intervention to turn off the services in your area due to a perceived risk of attack. It doesn’t need the world to fail it needs the location you are in to fail.

Not sure how well your plotter will work without a fix? Certainly drawing a 3 point fix on the screen is not going to be easy.

Originally Posted by jakew009

How is using a massive folded out chart on a rib practical? I get it on a cruising boat with a table, but on an open rib?



Serious question, I just can’t comprehend trying to break out a typical chart and start plotting my position on a rib with a compass... it just seems ridiculous.

And yet people managed just fine for years before chartplotters did it all for them. Personally I prefer the Imray charts which fold to A4 size and can live in a plastic wallet at that size.

[gpsguru]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Been thinking of some longer trips recently, and after reading a lot of old threads, a common theme is ‘make sure you have paper charts’.

So I’ll admit to being a bad sailor and not owning a single paper chart or ever having even looked at one except for training exercises or rya exams.

However, I started to think what would have to happen before I needed to resort to a paper chart:

- two completely independent chart plotters would have to pack up. Yes they are networked but it would take seconds to disconnect them. They have their GPS receivers integrated so all they need is 12v.
- if both chart plotters somehow packed up, the autopilot screen could still give me an independent gps reading and waypoints assuming the GPS receiver is still on the network.
- if the whole NMEA network dies, the fixed VHF has it’s own gps and can do waypoint navigation to a sort.
- I have two handheld VHF units, they both have gps and waypoint navigation.
- my phone has the navionics app and all the same charts that the chart plotter has downloaded for offline use. My gf’s phone has the same.
- My iPad is in a waterproof case and also has the navionics app.
- I have a Garmin Inreach sat phone thing that can act as a mini chart plotter.
- the boat has a pretty redundant electrical system and I have enough tools that would allow me to bodge things back together.

If something happened that wiped out the electrical system to such an extent I couldn’t bodge it and all my batteries ran out, I’m either already dead or I’m waiting to be rescued having activated multiple plb’s and an epirb.

So can someone tell me what purpose a paper chart would serve and in what circumstance I would use it?

Only any use on a boat with a chart navigation table !

On the RIB I have twin chart plotters and navionics on my phone, I can see any place for paper charts on a small fast boat.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by Poly

possibly - although might depend how it’s wired... but your question was about charts - not should you trust your fly by wire throttle!

Accepted, but with most new outboards now being fly by wire, it becomes a more relevant point.

of course - but presumably nothing has ever failed on your boat? Because right until that moment it was working fine.

Well I noticed the auto bilge pump switch was broken when I washed the boat the other day..
But I think there is a difference between a wiring fault and an actual component failure. You should be able to get the chance of a wiring fault to almost zero quite easily.

but you’d already made your mind up about that before asking other people’s opinion hadn’t you?

Yes of course I had (hence why I designed my boat with an entirely glass cockpit with not even a manual/mechanical/non-electronic compass).

However I got pissed off when some kn*b on Facebook suggested it was somehow dangerous relying on electronics, and then when I started reading on here there were plenty of posts also suggesting the same. So thought I would open a discussion about it

I doubt anyone who has spent the amount you have on redundancy is making choices between spending some money on charts and a plb.

But someone else could be making that decision and I’d argue they would be much better buying the plb first.

id guess most are not treated with the care you’d expect from a safety critical system and many people will not have taken the steps you have to ensure they have the app and maps downloaded etc.

Agree 100%. I am horrified at the state of many boat electrical systems, and the manufacturers and dealers should take a lot of the responsibility for doing a crap job in the first place.

I suspect you are underestimating the risk - probably not of some random glitch but intentional attack, or government intervention to turn off the services in your area due to a perceived risk of attack. It doesn’t need the world to fail it needs the location you are in to fail.

Can you give one example of something like this ever happening? GNSS becoming completely unavailable for an entire region?

Edit: actually I just found this: https://fortune.com/longform/gps-out...ping-industry/ so I accept it can potentially happen. Generally very localised and targeted jamming.

Not sure how well your plotter will work without a fix? Certainly drawing a 3 point fix on the screen is not going to be easy.

Accepted, but the only time I’m going to be doing that is if the worlds gps satellites fall out of the sky. How easy is it to start drawing a three point plot accurately on a paper chart in anything but flat calm conditions on an open rib?

And yet people managed just fine for years before chartplotters did it all for them. Personally I prefer the Imray charts which fold to A4 size and can live in a plastic wallet at that size.

I’m sure they did. Airline pilots use to carry a massive folder of paper charts as well. Now they just carry iPads...

P.s. I sound like I’m being argumentative and I’m not trying to be. Just trying to air out this myth that it’s bad seamanship to rely on electronic nav.