Do paper charts still have a place on ribs?

[jeffstevens763@g]

I see your thinking jake and see you'd be right in most cases, but some me included started with charts long before plotters so old habits,I carry binoculars too a must I think very handy when looking for a point to start from/going too etc. It does say on my plotter that it's an aid to navigation not to be solely relied on. To be honest I've more kit than ever back up for a back up when will it end.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Accepted, but with most new outboards now being fly by wire, it becomes a more relevant point.

it is a completely relevant point - what's your plan if the throttle fails? on my manual throttle I can work the engine manually, although it would be a PITA. Do you have a low tech aux?

Well I noticed the auto bilge pump switch was broken when I washed the boat the other day..
But I think there is a difference between a wiring fault and an actual component failure. You should be able to get the chance of a wiring fault to almost zero quite easily.

there's an awful lot of people here had corroded connection, the dreaded blackrot in copper wires, and snapped wires for something that's easily reduced to zero risk. I'm sure a lot of them were preventable. Of course perhaps some were also less reliant on gadgets and quite able to proceed to safety without relying on electronics.

However I got pissed off when some kn*b on Facebook suggested it was somehow dangerous relying on electronics, and then when I started reading on here there were plenty of posts also suggesting the same. So thought I would open a discussion about it

I'd respectfully suggest the solution is to leave facebook for sharing pictures of (grand)children and stupid meme's like its supposed to be!

Can you give one example of something like this ever happening? GNSS becoming completely unavailable for an entire region?

Edit: actually I just found this: https://fortune.com/longform/gps-out...ping-industry/ so I accept it can potentially happen. Generally very localised and targeted jamming.

I see you've discovered it is a real problem - this is from a good few years ago but lists a number of examples: https://rntfnd.org/wp-content/upload...bruary2014.pdf - I'd say since then the world has become more reliant on GPS which makes it more likely that a bad actor may attempt to interfere with it, or a state might have to decide to shut it down as an act of defence. You don't need to disable the whole GNSS region - just be unlucky and in the affected region.
and here's a view from the RYA https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...point-fix.aspx

Accepted, but the only time I’m going to be doing that is if the worlds gps satellites fall out of the sky. How easy is it to start drawing a three point plot accurately on a paper chart in anything but flat calm conditions on an open rib?

a lot easier if its something you've practised before the fan faeces interface!

P.s. I sound like I’m being argumentative and I’m not trying to be. Just trying to air out this myth that it’s bad seamanship to rely on electronic nav.

I suspect you've found everyone here being much more nuanced than on facebook (although I may be wrong and its the nicest facebook boating group around) - of course that might also be because you told everyone about all your backups. For the average rib - with one battery (and master fuse, and battery switch, 10 year old wiring etc), one chartplotter, then a £40ish chart is not a bad fall back plan. Certainly, I'd not be relying on the crap battery life of my aging iphone. Your friend on facebook would probably be better describing it as unseamanlike to have no contingency plan. I'd generally say you won't find people preaching that phrase round here - but people will want you to understand the risks for yourself and make up your own mind. Unlike facebook our posts essentially stay around for ever, and some of the advice you've read is probably over a decade (or maybe 2!) old so may no longer reflect the modern norms. Others will highlight some advantages of having an A4, A3, A2 or A1 sheet for planning etc. as they have done. Personally I think charts are gorgeous works of art and would happily have the on the wall! The same applies to OS maps - which like others also factor in my planning...

Out of interest - do people do "passage plans" (other than during courses) or has the chartplotter replaced/automated those?

[36valley]

Originally Posted by Poly

Out of interest - do people do "passage plans" (other than during courses) or has the chartplotter replaced/automated those?

For longer passages, yes. Running down the coast, ie: Brixham to Plymouth, Brixham to Lyme Regis then no. They're trips I've made often enough to be confident about. For longer or first time trips then I'll work out course to steer between waypoints, expected times between each, any harbours I might need to divert to along with any entry info that might be relevant along with harbour master contact details. It helps working out best times to hit tidal gates or see where seas may kick up at certain tide states. (I don't know any chart plotter that shows tidal overfalls.) I also would have the relevant loose leaf pages from the Reeds Almanac to look at if needed. As for those who say you can't use a chart on a fast rib, you can slow down of even stop it you have to.

Trips planed for this year include runs to the Solent, falmouth, and hopefully the Isles of Scillies. All runs where passage planing is part of the attraction.

But as I said earlier in the thread, having charts with me is part of the attraction and romance of messing about on the water. That, and I started doing this when chart plotters were still to be invented and old habits die hard.

For those younger and raised in a more technology based time, then I can understand why they might see things differently.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by Poly

it is a completely relevant point - what's your plan if the throttle fails? on my manual throttle I can work the engine manually, although it would be a PITA. Do you have a low tech aux?

No, at the moment I don’t have an aux. Whilst I accept a fly by wire engine introduces a bit more wire that could fail, aren’t most modern outboards now electronically controlled with an ECU?
So even the ‘manual’ cable controls will just be moving a potentiometer. The only difference is it’s under the engine cowling rather than under the throttle binnacle.

When I did all the work on my boat I was amused to see that Mercury has use non tinned automotive style wire which had suffered rot in places (some of which I think would have easily disabled the engine had it got worse and been impossible to diagnose at sea).

With regard to an aux engine, I initially discarded the idea as our tides would mean the boat would be going virtually no where with 5hp. However I’m warming to the idea of one as a way to get out the way of a shipping lane. At the time I bought a massive anchor and 120m of warp instead.

there's an awful lot of people here had corroded connection, the dreaded blackrot in copper wires, and snapped wires for something that's easily reduced to zero risk. I'm sure a lot of them were preventable. Of course perhaps some were also less reliant on gadgets and quite able to proceed to safety without relying on electronics.

Maybe in the days of carburettors, but they’re not going to be going anywhere if the electrical supply to their engine’s ECU is dodgy, paper charts and compasses at the ready or not...

I'd respectfully suggest the solution is to leave facebook for sharing pictures of (grand)children and stupid meme's like its supposed to be!

It was actually the local yacht club, but yes...

I see you've discovered it is a real problem - this is from a good few years ago but lists a number of examples: https://rntfnd.org/wp-content/upload...bruary2014.pdf - I'd say since then the world has become more reliant on GPS which makes it more likely that a bad actor may attempt to interfere with it, or a state might have to decide to shut it down as an act of defence. You don't need to disable the whole GNSS region - just be unlucky and in the affected region.
and here's a view from the RYA https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-adv...point-fix.aspx

It is an interesting conundrum I agree but it’s still not a reason to carry a paper chart. You just need some way of plotting a course using a compass on a digital chart...

a lot easier if its something you've practised before the fan faeces interface!

I suspect you've found everyone here being much more nuanced than on facebook (although I may be wrong and its the nicest facebook boating group around) - of course that might also be because you told everyone about all your backups. For the average rib - with one battery (and master fuse, and battery switch, 10 year old wiring etc), one chartplotter, then a £40ish chart is not a bad fall back plan. Certainly, I'd not be relying on the crap battery life of my aging iphone. Your friend on facebook would probably be better describing it as unseamanlike to have no contingency plan. I'd generally say you won't find people preaching that phrase round here - but people will want you to understand the risks for yourself and make up your own mind. Unlike facebook our posts essentially stay around for ever, and some of the advice you've read is probably over a decade (or maybe 2!) old so may no longer reflect the modern norms. Others will highlight some advantages of having an A4, A3, A2 or A1 sheet for planning etc. as they have done. Personally I think charts are gorgeous works of art and would happily have the on the wall! The same applies to OS maps - which like others also factor in my planning...

Out of interest - do people do "passage plans" (other than during courses) or has the chartplotter replaced/automated those?

I can’t really disagree with any of that. But I still stand by my point of if you can’t rely on your electrical system, you shouldn’t be going to sea at all, because your motors not going to take you far without power to its ecu. 10 year old engine looms could be just as rotten as 10 year old plotter wiring.

Re passage plans, I haven’t particular because our plans tend to change as soon as we get on the water and it starts raining / wind gets up / sea street changes etc.

But I’ll explore before hand on navionics app and plot a virtual course that I can recall in the plotter if I want to, but to be honest it just as easy to enter the waypoints as you go along.

[jakew009]

Paradoxically the whole “if your electrical system fails you need a backup” argument is quite a dangerous one, because your electrical system failing could mean:

- no vhf
- no gps
- no engine
- no bilge pumps
- no lights
- an electrical fire on board

Perhaps the focus should be on making sure your electrical system is 100% reliable in the first place, rather than trying to plan for what would happen if something entirely preventable should happen?

All entirely hypothetical of course...

[lakelandterrier]

Originally Posted by 36valley

But as I said earlier in the thread, having charts with me is part of the attraction and romance of messing about on the water. That, and I started doing this when chart plotters were still to be invented and old habits die hard.

For those younger and raised in a more technology based time, then I can understand why they might see things differently.

Fully agree with the above.

I think you wrapping an number of things in your argument, more about reliability of electrics - wiring / looms etc, more than just electronics.

I don't have the luxury of multiple batteries, looms, plotters, tablets guaranteed wi-fi at sea etc on my sub 6m rib, so yes a paper chart is useful and a back-up, and gives a wider picture in detail over a larger area.

Do you HAVE to carry them (esp if you have multiple independent systems - NO. Would you feel silly if your electronic devices failed and there was no manual back-up, probably (unlikely I know, but so is me going overboard, however doesn't stop me from having HH VHF and PLB clipped to my LJ.

Like most other boating things, take in the information available make a reasoned choice you are comfortable with. I think there is still a very real place for paper charts, but if you think not, don't invest in or carry them, it's not "wrong" nor it is "wrong" to carry them if you wish.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by 36valley

I don't know any chart plotter that shows tidal overfalls.:

Probably going to show my inexperience here but how does a paper chart show a tidal overfall that a digital version doesn’t?

It’s fundamentally exactly the same thing... the paper chart was once on a computer screen before it got printed?

Here’s some screenshot of Bideford bay, the tides and sea levels are all calculated in real time for you.

[36valley]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Probably going to show my inexperience here but how does a paper chart show a tidal overfall that a digital version doesn’t?

It’s fundamentally exactly the same thing... the paper chart was once on a computer screen before it got printed?

Here’s some screenshot of Bideford bay, the tides and sea levels are all calculated in real time for you.

Can't do links on this device, but if you Google imray chart symbols and look for tide races and overfalls you will see it's three wavy lines on top of each other. Then if you look at somewhere like Start Point or Portland on a chart you can see them marked over a fair sized area around those headlands. It's an indication to get out the Almanac and see when condition are likely to get 'uncomfortable or interesting" depending on your view of things. (Treerat knows what I mean )

I probably should have said that they don't show on my Garmin, as to be fair I don't have too much experience of other makes. So I'm ready to be corrected on that.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by 36valley

Can't do links on this device, but if you Google imray chart symbols and look for tide races and overfalls you will see it's three wavy lines on top of each other. Then if you look at somewhere like Start Point or Portland on a chart you can see them marked over a fair sized area around those headlands. It's an indication to get out the Almanac and see when condition are likely to get 'uncomfortable or interesting" depending on your view of things. (Treerat knows what I mean )

I probably should have said that they don't show on my Garmin, as to be fair I don't have too much experience of other makes. So I'm ready to be corrected on that.

Here’s what the chart plotter would have to say around Portland 😊

Looks like it has a slightly different symbol - a sort of wave crest which you can hover over.

This is on my iPhone but it’s exactly the same map / data on the chart plotter.

[36valley]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Here’s what the chart plotter would have to say around Portland 😊

Looks like it has a slightly different symbol - a sort of wave crest which you can hover over.

This is on my iPhone but it’s exactly the same map / data on the chart plotter.

As I said, I'm ready to be corrected.

Your obviously getting more out of your chartplotter than I am from mine. Probably an age and technophobe thing

[36valley]

Originally Posted by 36valley

As I said, I'm ready to be corrected.

Your obviously getting more out of your chartplotter than I am from mine. Probably an age and technophobe thing

And all the more reason I need to use paper charts.

[neil.mccrirrick]

Interesting debate it makes me wonder how much focus there is on the plotter while boating as opposed to landmarks and compass plus direction of travel. Perhaps a good idea for those concerned to turn off the plotter in mid water and then work our how you would get to a safe port

All the precautions in the world won’t help your panic if the first time used is when there are no alternatives ........imho [emoji1]

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by neil.mccrirrick

Interesting debate it makes me wonder how much focus there is on the plotter while boating as opposed to landmarks and compass plus direction of travel. Perhaps a good idea for those concerned to turn off the plotter in mid water and then work our how you would get to a safe port

All the precautions in the world won’t help your panic if the first time used is when there are no alternatives ........imho [emoji1]

I guess the same could be said by those who never use their chart plotters... until the fog rolls in and they cant remember how to turn it on

[paintman]

There isn't a right or wrong. Both have their uses.

Unless local law requires otherwise it's a personal preference thing & may be partly driven by age &/or techy stuff interest or ability - or the lack thereof.

If you've grown up in the age of computers then you may be more likely to favour that sort of stuff.

If you didn't then you may have a preference for the old ways - I'm 65 & computers, mobile phones et al didn't exist during my school/university time.
Maths in school required the use of log tables & slide rules, the new battery powered pocket calculators (came in in the early 70's)weren't allowed.
Consequently my hill walking was map & compass & boating was chart & compass.
I do now have a small handheld GPS & a fishfinder/chartplotter so I'm not a Luddite!

Handheld computers, computers that you could talk to, GPS, satnavs were things that existed in the world of science fiction.
GPS was initially military only & IIRC it wasn't until the late 1990s that close accuracy was enabled for civilian users.

You don't have to have a map or chart fully spread when in use on the ground/out on the water. Normal to have it folded to show the relevant area & either in a map case with a clear plastic piece or just inside a decent plastic bag.

(Both my boat engines are 2-stroke carbs, not EFi although they still need electrics for the sparks.)

If you considered every possible mishap that might befall you when out in a boat you wouldn't get in a boat in the first place!

[Poly]

Jake - purely by coincidence (or was it ?) this appeared on social media for me today: https://rin.org.uk/page/ENav?fbclid=...3rek2eD7V82ZmY

It’s lengthy so I’ve not read it, but skimmed its content and thought you’d like it.

I think you are overly optimistic about removing all electrical faults from your system - given as you say the engine manufacturers often don’t even used tinned cables etc. I don’t think a major electrical failure on the “house” side of the battery automatically means you’ve got inevitable engine failure. But without opening the aux debate, on a boat your size with the investment in shiny toys on the dashboard I’d say I’d be finding an aux if I was wanting resilience and smugness in a yacht club argument...

Fwiw you are wasting your time arguing with yacht club people - they always know best ;-)

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by Poly

Jake - purely by coincidence (or was it ?) this appeared on social media for me today: https://rin.org.uk/page/ENav?fbclid=...3rek2eD7V82ZmY

It’s lengthy so I’ve not read it, but skimmed its content and thought you’d like it.

I think you are overly optimistic about removing all electrical faults from your system - given as you say the engine manufacturers often don’t even used tinned cables etc. I don’t think a major electrical failure on the “house” side of the battery automatically means you’ve got inevitable engine failure. But without opening the aux debate, on a boat your size with the investment in shiny toys on the dashboard I’d say I’d be finding an aux if I was wanting resilience and smugness in a yacht club argument...

Fwiw you are wasting your time arguing with yacht club people - they always know best ;-)

I shall have a read and report back.

I agree about engine / house side faults. But the only logical reason the engine can suffer less electrical faults than the house side is that the engine harness is made better. Which is probably true - mass production in a factory with connectorised joins - rather than dodgy crimps done with a 2.99 eBay special.

Maybe we’ll see a lot more engine problems in the future as ~20 plus year old wiring starts to break down?

P.s. I agree on the aux. Working on it

[xlgum]

In case of emergency these paper charts make an perfect diy gasket!