DON'T support the RNLI . . .

[Jon Brooks]

I would never question the great work of the boys and girls in the RNLI.
The crews are fantastic people.
You could not pay me enough money to turn out in the condition that they do for free!!!

I give a fast car with a flashing blue light and a racing track any day of the week!

I have some great mate on crews of all types of boat.

I just think maybe we should consider the work of the other crews too.

I support both and will alway's continue to.

IMHO I don't think anyone is or was knocking the crews but maybe the people at the top.

Regards

[The Jackeens]

So why are the Indies independant. Whats the point in that !!!. Surely as Richard says it would make more sense for them to be joined together as one body.


Or is it a case of the indies like being independant and having their own internal power crazy commitees which like hearing the sound of their own voices, as is often the case in "private clubs".

I must admitt until JK created this thread I was not aware that indies existed and all where part of the RNLI.

PaUL

[tim griffin]

most of the indies are supported by a small amount by the Solent safety
group who hand out a small amount of money to them then they have to raise their own cash the Solent is well covered by indies and the RNLI
tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by The Jackeens

So why are the Indies independant. Whats the point in that !!!. Surely as Richard says it would make more sense for them to be joined together as one body.


Or is it a case of the indies like being independant and having their own internal power crazy commitees which like hearing the sound of their own voices, as is often the case in "private clubs".

I must admitt until JK created this thread I was not aware that indies existed and all where part of the RNLI.

PaUL

My understanding is that the indies are in areas where the RNLI feel the do not need to put a boat but the locals do want one.
It may also be an area where a RNLI boat used to be but they feel it is no longer needed there.

I may have that all wrong but is what I seem to remember.

I stand to be corrected

Regards

[roohairy]

Originally Posted by The Jackeens

Or is it a case of the indies like being independant and having their own internal power crazy commitees which like hearing the sound of their own voices, as is often the case in "private clubs".

Ouch! That's a bit unfair I think, saucer of milk anyone!!

[ribrunt]

Hi folks, been lurking for a while will intro myself later, suffice to say for the mo that I'm an Atlantic 75 helm. The erstwhile Mr. Brooks may recognise me!

1. RNLI Funding levels are actually at a low, due to the stockmarket (and the RNLI were not the only ones hit - how's your pension fund?) and the capital expansion (boats, college, logistics) programme. The college will actually provide positive cash benefits (e.g. accomodation costs) and free up space needed in ILC Cowes to maintain the ever-growing fleet. Just read the last edition RIB Magazine (go on, force yourself, just the RNLI article, ok!!)

2. The required funding levels were based on bitter experience of the past. Many independents have not seen those times, and may not have learnt those lessons. Had the RNLI worked on tighter funding levels in 2000 - 2002, it may very well have run out of money since!

3. Absorbing independents - many have varying capability, sometimes beyond that of the RNLI. GAFIRS is a good example - dive unit, paramedics, etc. GAFIRs could not operate as it currently does if it was an RNLI station. The RNLI will not PUT a boat somewhere - they must be invited by the local community and it must make operational sense (e.g. other SRUs ). Thames was different - MCA requested and stations are F/T (mostly from Coastal station crew!) with volunteers

4. Charity - this point has been proven many times. To turn a previous post on its head, anyone for an NHS-quality SAR service? Ah yes, I can see SeaStart accepting BUPA already!

5. You forgot another indie - Maritime International Rescue between Aberdeen and Montrose, the former Rob Gordon Institute.

6. "Surely the more money the RNLI raise the better the equipment they can provide" - it tends to work the other way around - just like any well run business. Identify what gear is required, cost it, and fundraise. For example, the College would probably be funded by specific donations, as are boats, etc. Of course the fundamental principle is the same - if the money ain't there the gear that has been identified can't follow!

7. I'm not blind to the waste either - I know how the place works! However, some waste, while never acceptable, is somewhat inevitable in such a sized organisation and is offset by the savings, etc generated. Remember, the RNLI effectively has 5,000 employees (though unpaid, full H&S applies!) across 250 branches in the UK and Ireland. That's bigger than many large well-known corporations.

I have full respect and admiration for the independents - they train, their lives are put on hold every time the pager goes off, and they help people just in the same way as we do.

Perhaps the thread should be called "Don't automatically support the RNLI - there may be others more relevant to you!"

All the best - and remember to be careful out there!

[Jon Brooks]

Originally Posted by ribrunt

The erstwhile Mr. Brooks may recognise me!

Ah Venner I know the family!!!
Nice to see you come back on this one.
Hope you well and see you in July, I hope, its your round!

And welcome out from the lurking rock
I hope I don't need the aid of you and your crew mates in July!!
They are letting me loose on a rib for the week, god help them all!!


Best regards

[gingercoastie]

Good point Mr Runt, or can I call you Rib.


I think that with all good conscience we should support our local rescue orginization, be that an independent or RNLI.

I see it this way, I may want these people to rescue me one day ( imagine the shame ) and the more money they have been given to buy equipment and train the better.

[Mike B]

Just got round to looking at the main board after spending most of my time on the Charity Auction Thread.

Looks like this thread is running away with itself.

I am an RNLI offshore member and will continue to be as long as it is available. This is my choice (yep mainly because it is easy) and because I think the RNLI deserve my hard earned cash.

Additionally living where I do I also contribute to SARA (Severn Area Rescue Association) as and when they are fund raising and when I have trips up to the humber I donate to Humber Rescue to launch at their slipway.

I think JK is right to raise the profile of these groups and it is everyone's personal choice whether to support them or not.

After the success of the Cancer Research Auction (and in a few months) I would be happy to run another and I feel the Independant Rescue Orgs would be a suitable charity to support if enough people are in agreement and JK agrees.

Cheers

Mike

[seaskimmer]

[QUOTE=Dirk Diggler] I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment, surely the important bit is being rescued, and I dont suppose you would really care who it was that rescued you.

Or would you tell the old lady in the rowing boat to go away, cause you'd rather wait for an Arrun Class!

i can guarentee that a fast car and a bucket of water will not put your shed fire out, in fact throwing a bucket of water into a shed on fire can make things a lot worse, ie chemicals+heat+water+paint, and all manner of other nasties can explode at any time.that's why it's best left to the proffesionals

[gavin]

Quote
"If the amount of money that boaters raise is so insignificant, why are you so bothered about my suggestion?"


I would have to say, I have excell spreadsheets of various years fundraising accounts, it is easy to see at a glance that boating contributions in general, are low on a year to year basis, they are very valuable to the Institution, they are not the bread and butter of the income.
I have collected more money outside shopping centres than I have pro rata at boat shows in Dublin for example.
What concerns me is people taking the suggestion to divert funds from the RNLI away to other groups seriously!
We already have the use of a free, well staffed, well covered , highly trained and equipped rescue service.
Think of it like a piece of road, a piece of infrastructure, it needs money and funding to keep it operating properly, reduce that money and put it into another project or other infrastructre and what are you left with?
You may well end up very quickly with two white elephants.
At the end of the day the RNLI exists to save lives,
They do save lives, lots of them, you already have an excellent service in place, a proven resource, peace of mind while at sea, I certainally wouldnt suggest to stop supporting them!
How does it make sense to start funding independants and let them make the mistakes, and find the faults and pitfalls, that somebody else has already done and improved upon over 180 years,
are we ever happy with anything!
As for Charitable status , imagine this didnt exist
sure then the RNLI would be even worse off financially what with tax and corporation tax and bik on vehicles etc etc

I just hope people choose for themselves and dont believe everything that they read

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by seaskimmer

i can guarentee that a fast car and a bucket of water will not put your shed fire out, in fact throwing a bucket of water into a shed on fire can make things a lot worse, ie chemicals+heat+water+paint, and all manner of other nasties can explode at any time.that's why it's best left to the proffesionals

I afraid have to disagree with you there, because many years ago when I lived in London, my neighbours shed caught fire because her barbeque flared up, me and a mate jumped into my mini (ok, the fast car bit is a lie) with a bucket of water and drove round to her house, and put it out.

With hindsight I suppose I should have let it burn out of control and phoned the firebrigade, coz I know you guys like a good blaze!!!

[Robert1]

It seems that the RNLI is suffering from diseconomies of scale. However, despite this, the general consensus seems to be that they do a fantastic job. So, would it not be a good idea to filter out the diseconomies of scale and increase productivity and use the money that would otherwise have been wasted to fund the poorly-funded local services. This would boost the funding and services that the 'indies' could offer, but it would not affect the RNLI funding or level of service because its money they dont see anyway!

Dirk: How many of your friends have barbeques with chemicals and paint on them?

[codprawn]

[

i can guarentee that a fast car and a bucket of water will not put your shed fire out, in fact throwing a bucket of water into a shed on fire can make things a lot worse, ie chemicals+heat+water+paint, and all manner of other nasties can explode at any time.that's why it's best left to the proffesionals [/QUOTE]

And what exactly do you think the fire brigade use to put out fires? Thats right good old H2O - lots of it intelligently applied - yes even onto oil fires!!!

Most fire brigades have a few foam tenders but they are few and far between - water mist is used far more often - just watch the next time you see some firemen putting out a burning car!

[DepSol]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Here are some candidates you might like to consider:

Gosport And Fareham Inshore Rescue Service
www.gafirs.org.uk

Cowes Inshore Lifeboat
www.cowesinshorelifeboat.org.uk

Hamble Lifeboat
www.hamblelifeboat.org.uk

Ryde Inshore Rescue
www.ryde-inshore-rescue.org.uk

Freshwater Lifeboat
www.freshwaterbayresidents.org.uk/lifeboat.html

Southport Offshore Rescue Trust
www.southport-lifeboat.co.uk

Severn Area Rescue Association
www.sara-rescue.org.uk

The Portishead Lifeboat Trust
www.portishead-lifeboat.org.uk

Humber Rescue
www.humber-rescue.org.uk

Hornsea Rescue
www.hornsea.rescue.btinternet.co.uk

East Sutherland Rescue Association
www.esra-dornochlifeboat.freeserve.co.uk

Loughor Inshore Lifeboat
www.sea-rescue.de/loughor-lifeboat

Haverigg Inshore Rescue
www.haverigginshore.co.uk

Following on from Mike B's brilliant fundraising auction I would like to look at other ways that we can raise money, and nominate the independent life boat organisations as RIBnet's chosen group charities.

John

John, so what do I do in Guernsey then. If the RNLI goes from here and Alderney and Jersey we have nothing.

Now I do partly agree with you however, whatI think you should have said is...

Fund the RNLI but also look at these chaps too, they do a sterling job. If you have funded the RNLI for years maybe you would now like to help these guys or if you cant choose please try to split the donation between the two of them.

I think that all of us having a pop at the RNLI need to look at it a little more in depth. Ye maybe they do waste money but so do other business take Royal Bank of Scotland whom I worked for until recently they made £7.1m profit last year and they are throwing money away left right and centre but only because certain red tape dictates that some things have to be done a certain way to streamline the process. Imagine the profits if every money waster was found and binned, my bonus would have been huge. It goes the same for the RNLI to streamline things sometimes means to waste money. Maybe they did build and design their own boat whos to say that others around the world arent using it and have bought the design from RNLI?

Not saying that any one is wrong but sometimes there are hidden reasons for everything and it is easy to stand back an say that they waste money but harder to find out exactly where and why.

I believe in gving to all the rescue charities, even St Johns over here altho if you get picked up by an ambulance you have to pay £120 to me thats not charity that is a business as the RNLI dont ask you to cough up once they rescued you.

I think they all do a great and worthwhile job and thay all need our support. John I am sure if you were up a certaincreek without a certain instrument you ould not say to the RNLI hold on the inshore boys will be here in a minute. I think as an influencial person on the forum you should be helping to get funding for both.

[Noddy]

Well JK you certainly got a lively debate going but how the hell did we get onto shed fires?
My last words on the subject are:
In a perfect world we would have a government funded organisation that is well financed with the best equipment that money can buy run by professionals - much like the NHS(tongue firmly in cheek here)??
Unfortunately that will never happen as well we all know?
The best option I can think of is that all the organisations you have mentioned and those you have not, have some sort of affiliation to the RNLI so that they work in the same way to the same rules, have the same training and funding according to the areas they work in.
I think the title you used was the problem here - If I was a volunteer risking my life in some godforsaken place off the coast of Scotland(or anywhere else for that matter?) to rescue the idiots we have all met on the water I could well have been insulted by it.

[Jonny Fuller]

That Kennett bloke will do anything to get the RIBnet ratings up

[The Jackeens]

Missus

[Keith Hart]

Hmmm, interesting one this.

I am interested in the WHY. WHY do we have to rely on charity in the first palce for our maritime rescue? How did this happen?

Let us look another possible situation. Your house is on fire. You ring 999 and get through to Fire Control (equivalent of the Coast Guard - professional and funded by government and local authorities). Fire Control then contact the nearest fire station and ask them to turn out. However the fire stations are not funded by government and local authorities. They are funded by a national charity the RNFBI (Royal National Fire Brigade Institute). The firemen are all volunteers and have full time jobs. The bleeps go out and all the crewmembers available make their way to the fire station. They jump aboard the fire engine and make their way to your house. They put out the fire, then all go back to their day jobs.

Okay then, in a large city there are quite a few crews and they live near to the fire stations. However there are many country areas that are deemed 'too quiet' to have a RNFBI station. Here local communities set up charities to run their own part-time volunteer fire stations. There are several hundred 'local volunteer' fire brigades around the country and one national volunteer fire brigade.

It sounds daft, but the above is the equivalent of the situation with our national maritime rescue services.

Why?

Keith (here are some brackets for fundraising (( Hart

[Matt Riley]

From what I understand, the RNLI has a set of procedures which could be restrictive in some situations. Also, if the independents were swallowed up by the RNLI they would all have to use a D class or atlantic 21/75. We all know that different RIBs are good for different locations and applications. Compared to the Atlantic 75 (total 140 hp) the likes of Hamble Rescue, have a better craft in some ways- twin jet drives, higher bollard pull, more survivor capacity. Just look at the story in the latest RIB int'l about the atlantic crew having to call out the trent class because they couldn't tow a yacht in bad conditions, surely a bigger RIB (such as the P32s some of the independents use) could have done the job.

I know that I would like to see the RNLI possibly offering a partnership with these guys so that they could get trained up at the ILC in cowes, rather than being exclusive. Surely the priority is rescuing people, not where the money goes (as long as everyone has got enough to go around).

There are a few RNLI lifeboats in and around the solent area, able to respond to calls - calshot, hayling, portsmouth etc.

I think that there is a lot more variation in standards with the independents, but the probably a greater proportion of the guys driving the independent service ribs have a marine background, with a lot more years of experience. A classic example of this variation - just look at the gear the SARA or GAFIRS guys use - cheapo foam lifejackets normally kept for guests on yachts rather than the proper crewsaver kit that the RNLI use.