dry suits?!?!?!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by BassBoy

There are also a number of people who are alive today because they were not wearing a seat belt in an RTA! How many I don't know, but I would bet it's less than were saved by wearing one.

There's a rather chilly ash in the garden that needs a hug. I'm off !

(educate,....... don't legislate ......sorry to quote the RYA ,but it's the right idea)

Peace and Love to you all

It is not the same at all. I agree not wearing a lifejacket when it is needed is stupid - but it MAY be different if you are wearing an immersion suit of some sort.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

It doesn't matter in the slightest HOW their lifejackets were fitted - they had been in the water for 12 hours in one case. Far more important than incorrect fitting lifejackets was their total inability to summon help. Their bodies had been in the water for 36hrs before they were found!!!

mmm... thats got to be one of the most unusual arguments for not wearing a properly fitted life jacket - because you will die anyway! So if only one person fell overboard and it took an hour to find and recover them; or if the vessel that swamped them had initiated a search; or if they had had a mobile phone in their pocket (in a freezer bag, of course) then at least 2 of them would quite probably still have drowned.

As to lifejackets and drysuits/floatation suits etc I do wonder if they can cause more problems than the worth of it. You don't see many surfers wearing lifejackets do you?

no but surfers are (1) normally close to shore (2) often in company (3) increasingly on beaches with lifeguards (4) usually reasonably young/healthy strong swimmers and the majority also don't go out in the dark or the freezing cold and still some of them drown!

I agree an unconcious person won't be righted but a concious one MAY be better off without a lifejacket if ther is enough air in their suit.

a conscious person can always deflate a l/j if it is impeding him.

[Leapy]

Think I'll stick with wearing a life jacket on the boat and wearing a seat belt in the car Law of averages and all that

[JSP]

Seeing how we're on to life jackets;
Auto or manual?
I have autos' here but bought some 150n manual's too if I'm just messaging about in a river. If I slip on my arse on the slip to the river and end up going for a swim I don't really want the lifejacket going off. And I know the big floor in this idea is that I could slip, smash my head and then go for a swim but the chances are slimmer on this happening. All about pro's and cons.

[Doug Stormforce]

Loads of valuable stuff on this thread but to add my 2 penny’s worth. I think this is going to be a long reply

Originally Posted by JSP

I've only just started with RIB's this winter and keeping warm was my first concern. I got a XL drysuit so I could fit clothes underneath. I wear jeans, T-shirt, fleece easily and I'm like toast. Just make sure what ever your wearing doesn't have a high collar as this will tighten the neck seal, something I found out

Good advice but jeans are not the most effective item of clothing under your suit, also avoid cotton T short (common myth that it is good) as its absorbs mosisture and does not inuslate as well as many fabrics. If it is coming into contact with your skin go for synthetic fabric, such as a treated polyester or better still silk (not so macho I know). You will see what I mean in a few months when temeratures drop and those NNE polar winds kick in.

Originally Posted by jyasaki

A drysuit keeps you dry by the property of being well, waterproof. It keeps you warm by the virtue of insulation.

Drysuits are not famous for there insulation, as you said they keep you dry, it’s the layers of fleece/thermals underneath that provide the insulation. A drysuit without layers will be ineffective and does not effectibvy insulate you. In fact the pressure of water will compress the suit against your skin and allow heat to disperse from the body very rapidly. Drysuits are not warm in themselves

Originally Posted by JSP

Looks like I'll need to get myself a 275N then.
After getting into the drysuit I always crouch down on the floor and open the kneck seal. You wouldn't believe how much air comes out.
Cheers for that info gents

Good technique, if your suit has integral rubber socks or wellies you can take it a stage further by wading into the water from the slipway, keeping you hands and head above water level, slightly opening the neck and using water pressure to squeeze air out the top. As the suit is waterproof it will not cause a cool down if you only spend 30 secs in the water.

Originally Posted by Leapy

Just going down the drysuit route myself...but have a 150N crewsaver automatic inflatable lifejacket. Can the 150N be converted to a 275N just by changing the inflation canister or is it more complex than that?

No the 275N effectively is nearly twice the size (and often made up of 2 independent lungs each with its own canister)

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

I

The recent investigation into the tragedy of the Ouzo found that although all three of the yachtsmen who died were wearing lifejackets, 2 were found drowned with their heads submerged, suspended by the armpits from the waiststrap of their LJs which were not fitted properly. In the 3rd victim the LJ fitted better but was still found floating nearly vertical with his airway submerged.

Totally agree with the rest of your post and second all that you said. Taking the Ouzo tradgdy further, the key difference between the 2 guys who survived less than 2 hrs and the guy that survived 12 hrs was that he had a crotch starp. As the others fell unconscious due to hypothermia their mouths fell below the water line and they drowned, the 12 hrs guy’s mouth was supported above the waterline as his L/J had a crotch strap.

Originally Posted by codprawn

It doesn't matter in the slightest HOW their lifejackets were fitted - they had been in the water for 12 hours in one case. Far more important than incorrect fitting lifejackets was their total inability to summon help. Their bodies had been in the water for 36hrs before they were found!!!

As Polwatr said the point was survival time was improved although sadly not by long enough

As to lifejackets and drysuits/floatation suits etc I do wonder if they can cause more problems than the worth of it. You don't see many surfers wearing lifejackets do you?

Originally Posted by codprawn

I agree an unconcious person won't be righted but a concious one MAY be better off without a lifejacket if ther is enough air in their suit.

We may agree on politics and have common dislike of all things Gordon but I totally disagree with this statement. A lifejacket will dramatically increase your chances of survival if you land in the water, Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.

Not mentioned so far are spray hoods. While a life jacket will save your life by turning you face up it causes a new problem. As your head and shoulders are above the water they will blow down wind and your feet will point upwind like a sea anchor- the effect is the life jacket that 2 minutes ago saves you life is now causing you to face straight into any oncoming wave. The gap between the two parts of the lung on a conventional horseshoe style jacket actually helps channel waves up and into your mouth. Not only is the life jacket essential and the crotch strap important but a spray hood is a life saver if you land in waves.

Most of this thread is course content on the RYA sea Survival Course, Instructors don’t just talk you through but show you and let you try on the different types (50, 100, 150 and 275 Newtons, crotch straps, pre inflated, foam filled, manual and auto, hammer action and salt tablet, spray hoods, auto light and manual lights).

[Buff]

There are so many variables when it comes to what equipment you should wear/ take with you. You should alway consider the conditions and plan for the worst case as far as I am concerened. If things go tits up, how long is it going to be before someone finds you?

Good foul weather gear will protect you from the elements out of the sea, but provide little or no benefit in the water. A membrane dry suit with sufficient layering underneath will provide good protection against cold shock and cold water immersion. I would always recommend a high bouyancy lifejacket if wearing a dry suit to counter act the potential of trapped air in the wrong areas of the suit, generally 275N. You want to increase freeboard and have the right angle of orientation in the water.

As for auto/ manual, in the marine environment, I would recommend auto, that way if you do have an unconcious subject, the jacket should self right and ensure the airway is clear. Different in the aviation environment where you should always have a manual inflation.

Wearing seat belt v's not?? My mate who is a postie lived because he was not wearing a seat belt. He was T-boned by another car on the drivers side of his van, not wearing a seat belt meant he was shunted across to the passenger seat escaping certain death. He does now sport a gear stick scar on his leg though! Sometimes lady luck is either with you or not...

[Nos4r2]

Doug,just a thought. What do you think of the idea of wearing light ankle weights (not enough to give you negative bouyancy) with a drysuit and a 150n LJ?

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Drysuits are not famous for there insulation, as you said they keep you dry, it’s the layers of fleece/thermals underneath that provide the insulation.

My original response was poorly phrased. I did mean that the insulation worn between the suit and the skin is what keeps you warm.

Sorry for the confusion.

jky

[chewy]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Doug,just a thought. What do you think of the idea of wearing light ankle weights (not enough to give you negative bouyancy) with a drysuit and a 150n LJ?

Best investing in some reflective tape to go round your ankles, thats a natural way to float.

Ankle weights are uncomfy anyway.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by chewy

Best investing in some reflective tape to go round your ankles, thats a natural way to float. Ankle weights are uncomfy anyway.

interesting comment. I normally float head up without too much effort, although agree ankle weights are not needed.

Originally Posted by chewy

It will if you buy a decent thermal liner like Musto that wicks away any moisture. During the summer it looks as though my suit is leaking as the outside of the liner is damp but the inside is dry!

There comes a point when any material under the drysuit will become saturated and the termal protection from layers of trapped air no longer work. You will get cold, particularly during winter months. The wind chill across a drysuit thats constantly being covered in spray is the problem. During the summer you tend to be just soggy but warm so it's not as noticeable or a problem.

Doug mentioned no jeans or cotton t shirts, he is right they are not warm. Think mountaineers have a saying of "killer cotton" with a good reason, Codders will know more. I have dived in Jeans and t shirts under a drysuit, but it's during the summer when it doens't matter as at the end of the dive you are back on the surface able to warm up. But wouldn't dream of it during the winter or spring (water still very cold).

Pete

[Jelly]

I remember being told that you should only use a 275N LJ if you are carrying heavy equipment on your person or heavy oilskins / Dry Suit as it needed the mass to right the body + LJ to the correct orientation.
I was told that some tests had shown very lite people with little clothing in a 275N would not right and could be floating inverted and unable to right themselves due to the buoyancy forces. I'm pretty sure this came from one of the cold water survival researchers at a conference.

Personally I use a manual 125N for safety / work boat use and want to get an auto 275N with hood, light and legs for offshore/night use.
If you can a radio, a night & Day flare and a decent knife are things I think are smart ideas have on it. Without looking like action man's utility belt.

Would be interesting to see what the professional trainers have to say.
Jelly

[JSP]

I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?

Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, drysuit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?

[chewy]

Originally Posted by Pete7

interesting comment. I normally float head up without too much effort, although agree ankle weights are not needed.



There comes a point when any material under the drysuit will become saturated and the termal protection from layers of trapped air no longer work. You will get cold, particularly during winter months. The wind chill across a drysuit thats constantly being covered in spray is the problem. During the summer you tend to be just soggy but warm so it's not as noticeable or a problem.


Pete

Sorry I didn't explain myself too well, with an ILB crewsaver jacket on and drysuit I float with my head and front of jacket above water with my knees/feet just showing. It surprising how well the yellow wellies on our suits stand out.
I've never had the problem of my undersuit been soaked during the winter, I have been too warm but a quick dip in the sea sorts that.

I think what we have is more or less ideal for what we use it for although if it was my choice I would use a thin liner during summer. The only reason we have to wear a thick liner all year is we don't know when or where we'll get tasked to?

[iandl]

Originally Posted by JSP

I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?

Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, drysuit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?

when we travel offshore we have to watch a dvd brief first .....jeans are not the prefered cause they soak up water a take an age to dry and can be quite heavy ....shouldnt really matter though if the drysuit is 100% waterproof .....it recommends cords but there not mandatory ....when going onto the choppers we wear a survival suit with a built in liner (pia to get on and off) the lifejacket has a built in re-breather and a plb from here http://www.seamarshall.com/home.php

having been in the water before i would echo Dougs advise ....spray hoods ....a definate must ....so easy to get water up your nose and in your eyes from licking waves ....then the coughing and spluttering gags in easily avoidable with a sprayhood ......


drysuit is by far my preferred in the RIB but with 3 thin layers of clothes underneath rather than one heavy set ....rarely ever wear jeans ....for passengers i have mullion flotation suits

I

[Doug Stormforce]

Another long reply coming up

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Doug, just a thought. What do you think of the idea of wearing light ankle weights (not enough to give you negative bouyancy) with a drysuit and a 150n LJ?

Never come across it other than for divers (where they do have negative buoyancy) but I would have though that if the weights were not negatively buoyant (i.e. heavier than water) they would make no difference. Remember removing as much air as possible is important when using a dry suit

Originally Posted by Jelly

I remember being told that you should only use a 275N LJ if you are carrying heavy equipment on your person or heavy oilskins / Dry Suit as it needed the mass to right the body + LJ to the correct orientation.
I was told that some tests had shown very lite people with little clothing in a 275N would not right and could be floating inverted and unable to right themselves due to the buoyancy forces. I'm pretty sure this came from one of the cold water survival researchers at a conference.

I would be interested to hear/read some more details on this. From memory the standard 150N are designed for adults and teenagers (over 40 kilos, this may vary slightly with different manufactures) I think this is the same for the 275N (will check and confirm/correct this on Monday). That said I would not advocate someone slight wearing a 275 unnecessarily as once inflated it is enormous and very difficult to then climb into a raft/RIB/marina pontoon etc. As already said it’s about having the right kit for the right situation.

The generally accepted practice in the leisure world is to wear a 275N if you fall into one of these categories.
• Single handed operator (therefore unlikely to have survival craft nearby).
• Particularly heavy people (we are talking twenty something stones).
• Those wearing heavy tool belts or similar.
• Those wearing dry suits or rubber sealed ankles where large amount of air can be trapped in the legs.
• Operating in an ocean environment where the expected wave height is bigger

This list is not exhaustive but a guide. Most commercial users wear one; this is as a result of HS risk assessments. The RNLI wear them. I don’t want to sound like I’m belittling the 275 because it has its place but it is slightly heavier and bulkier to wear, it is massive once inflated and it’s more expensive (not wanting to start the cost vs. human life debate).

One of the biggest benefits I see of the 275N is that many manufacturers make it with two lungs; therefore if one was damaged there is effectively a back up. The 2nd lung has an independent canister and firing system.

I would suggest for inshore leisure RIB users who are operating with others on board there are other safety devices that may be more worthwhile for your money (the hood and crotch straps already mentioned being two of them) and that regular servicing and inspection is particularly effective.

I’ve got a 275 and a 150, I wear the 275 rarely. I have thoroughly experimented with my dry suit/LJ combo and found it worked for (up righted) me. We are of course all different.

I have seen numerous students on Sea Survival Courses whose 150N life jacket have failed to turn them upright, ignoring the dry suit guys this has nearly always been due to a badly fitting (too loos) LJ and/or no crotch strap. WE have a contract with a local fire brigade for Sea Survival training, as they all turn up in heavy duty dry suits with integral wellies I have had to buy some 275 specifically for them for the pool.

We did have one girl, must have weighed about 55kg who would not right from a 150N, she told me she carried 14kg weight when diving in the Red Sea (which is loads more than I carry at approaching twice her weight). So there are always people that are different.

Originally Posted by JSP

I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.
For future ref does anyone know the BEST type of normal day (as in stuff you can go to asda and pick up) clothes to wear, what fabric etc?

The best first layer (next to skin) would be treated polyester or silk, There are plenty companies that make good thermals, you might find the ski and outdoor stores slightly cheaper than some of the yachting branded stuff. A very thin pair of socks is good as well as are some very thin gloves.

The next layer can be heavier poly or fleece. A lot of people got for roll neck and long sleeves. I have been over the years issued loads of crap fleeces by outdoor centres and sailing schools I used to work at. For about 10 years I have only worn Mustso, I’m not saying there are the only or best brand but they work. I have had students who have bought cheap high street fleeces and get cold very quickly, I think it’s because the stitching is not close enough. Musto do a mid layer called shell, its very thin and tight fitting. I bought one after the Round Britain and Ireland Race (got very cold in 06) and it is what I wear in the winter under dry suit or oilies. In olden days sailors wore wool, still good but has been overtaken by many man made fabrics.

Several thin layers that do not restrict movement is the answer, have a look on the websites of Musto, Henri Lloyd, Gul, etc they will explain it more accurately than |I have.

Originally Posted by JSP

Next Q,
with you saying about getting the right buoyancy, to tell the truth I'm a cat funt by way of beer bellie, so most of my weight is lower down (I'm sure I'm hung like a donkey too but haven't seen it since I was 18 and doing weights ) So taking into account I'd have clothing on, dry suit with light sailing boots on, would the 275N be best for keeping my head out?

It’s not about keeping your head out, it more about the turning effect of an unconscious casualty. A well fitted 150 would probably do the job, but see above. There is no harm in trying it out on the slipway next time you are launching. Hold your breath lay face down, go as relaxed/limp as you can and see what happened. If it does not turn you face up then do it yourself and go shopping. Every person is different but a well fitting 150 works for most.

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by JSP

I always thought jeans would be good to keep warm as long as kept dry so I'm glad you've pointed out they aren't. No cotton too? Will have to remember that.

When wet, cotton fibers collapse and trap water. When you combine those, it's nearly the same as being immersed. Wool doesn't absorb water, but will hold it in the weave to a fair degree, but also retains bulk. Which is why wool is preferred over cotton in extreme conditions (which is a relative term, I suppose.)

Modern synthetics (polypropylene, capilene, etc.) do not absorb water in the fibers (though they do trap it between threads of the weave to some extent), and the good ones retain their bulk when moist, and tend to shed the water from the weave, thus retaining some insulative properties.

When diving, I use a base layer of polypropylene, and a merino wool jump suit over that. My feet get a thin hydrophobic liner, a fleece sock, and a heavy wool sock. I tend not to move too much when diving so have a tendency to get colder than most, I think (combination of taking pictures and being lazy.)


I should probably add that what I wear would be overkill for staying above water. You'd probably roast on all but the coldest days.

jky

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Never come across it other than for divers (where they do have negative buoyancy) but I would have though that if the weights were not negatively buoyant (i.e. heavier than water) they would make no difference. Remember removing as much air as possible is important when using a dry suit

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant using a light set of divers lead ankle weights that weren't heavy enough to make you negatively buoyant in a drysuit but enough to make you float head up, then a 150n lifejacket as well.