EPIRB or Handheld DSC radio?

[indaba1991]

Hi again - missed one last thing on the lifejacket. We also have a Firefly Strobe lights - this is a high intensity flashing light - clearly seen by day but particularly at night.

All of these items are expensive but, as many on the forum point out, there is nothing like having them if you get into trouble. For boats with big engines it probably equates to a few fuel fill ups!

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by indaba1991

The whole system works on a distress signal being sent to a satellite and then that signal being resent to earth to an earth station. So if a signal for distress goes off in the UK the ping may first be picked up in say Portugal.The average time for a response in 45 minutes and it can take as long as one hour.

There seems to be a fair amount of misinformation about PLBs and EPIRBs out there.

Original EPIRBs couldn't/didn't send positional data. That meant they sent signal that basically said "My boat is XYZ, I'm in Distress" and the the satellite system tried to work out where the boat was which was typically to a 5km area. That information is then relayed to the Coastgaurd for the country of origin for the EPIRB. They will then try and contact the vessel - landline call to the registered owner to exclude false alarm. VHF call to the sector its in based on the 5km area. The 5km satellites can take up to half an hour to fly overhead in most of the places we operate. That means a response will typically take 45minutes before all the bells and whistles are properly kicking off. The fact that the satellite that receives it beams it to portugal should make seconds of difference rather than half an hour. Its the fact that the satellite that needs to work out where the boat is needs to fly roughly over it to get that info and that means you have to wait.

Modern EPIRBs and PLBs include a GPS and so the message it sends is basically "My boat is XYZ, I'm at position ABC, I'm in Distress. They send that to a different satellite. So if the PLB has a position in it (see below), the signal should be in Falmouth (where all UK signals are sent to) within minutes.

Snag is having the position. A GPS takes a bit of time to get a fix, especially if its not been on for a while (or ever) or if its moved position significantly. Most of the time thats only 3minutes or so. A PLB will start transmitting a positionless distress message during that 3minute period. It should then switch to with a position and help should be scrambled pretty quick. MustRIB says that took nearly 30minutes to get a fix for him. No idea why - position of the receiver I suspect.

However if your handheld DSC VHF, AIS PLB and EPIRB PLB were all in a head to head test with a cold GPS fix then the time difference in putting a meaningful position on the chart plotter of your local coastie isn't going to be massively different in my opinion. The snag is switching your EPIRB PLB on to get a fix prior to going out drains battery, its not a rechargable thing. Second snag is the DSC VHF if you wear it switch off but put it on long enough before going out will store the old position. There will be an algorithm in the set that decides if it sends a position when you hit big red button based on age of the position but it may mean if you dont get a decent fix quickly it sends an old fix. The fix will be time stamped but bearing in mind a RIB travels at 30kts an hour old fix could send help looking in a crazy location.

Not sure how the AIS PLB is powered and if it can update its GPS fix constantly or just when you hit the panic button...

[indaba1991]

Here is a timeline transcript of a well known accident that happened recently off the coast of Ireland. Bear in mind the vessels involved were equipped to the highest standards and the peopled involved were extremely experienced. Note here the exact timings the PLB's were turned on at 17.45 - 17.50 The pings were not seen by anyone until 18.29. People were in the water and a mayday was not declared until 19.30. In cold water they would probably have been dead. If anyone had an AIS or a VHF the rescue would have begun immediately. The facts of this bear disaster have been analysed carefully and like any accident there are a chain of events. What rests with me is that PLB / EPIRBS are subject to delays I would not be comfortable with if I needed immediate help.

Full info on this particular accident here.

http://www.cruisingclub.org/pdfs/saf...ry_rambler.pdf


est 1745-1750 BST - both PLB's (on top of the boat) were turned on.
 about 1809 BST - ICAP LEOPARD (another 100 ft maxi) passed 3-400m to leeward. All efforts to hail or
otherwise alert them failed.
 about 5 min later - two Volvo 70's (GROUPAMA and ABU DHABI) and later an IMOC 60 sailed by to leeward.
All efforts to hail or alert them failed.
 1829 BST (about 39-44 min after 2 PLB's were activated) Valentia Maritime Rescue Sub-Center (MRSC)
received data confirming the location of the person registered as holder of both PLB‟s. At first the call over
VHF was "Gigi Bernard competing in the Rolex Fastnet Race", who was thought to be a crew member of one
of the French mulithulls in the race. Later, with the help of another race boat's (ICAP Leopard) navigator "G.
G. Bernard" was determined to be the Point of Contact for "George David" and connected him to the race
boat RAMBLER 100 which was no longer showing on AIS. (all of RAMBLER's PLBs were registered to "George
David"). Rambler‟s sat phone number was given to MRSC Valentia by ICAP Leonard‟s navigator.
 1851 BST PAN PAN Declared by Valentia MRSC. Baltimore RNLI Lifeboat dispatched from Fastnet Rock where
they were taking photos of boats and sent to the PLB position to search for an individual PLB (Gigi Bernard).
 1930 BST - after trying to call RAMBLER's Sat Phone and getting no answer a MAYDAY was declared by
Valentia MRSC. Two helos and local craft assigned to the search.

[SPR]

I was told that AIS PLB is the choice for a high population of shipping area with good VHF coverage. - Solent fits this!

It will show up in the coastguard and port authority AIS system almost instantaneous.

PLB good for remote locations or Western Isles due the terrain ....plus you can use it for hillwalking skiing etc.

I current have:

dsc h/h radio - m91d on lanyard
McMurdo 210 GPS PLB with flotation collar
Lifejacket light
Serrated Safety Knife on lanard
Leatherman charge
Rescue Laser Flare - shameless plug!
Fenix LED torch

I don't do much night time running but have extra strobes If needed.

when the 210 expires - I prob buy an AIS PLB instead - I have both dummy units I show on course - and like the S10 for ease of deployment .

regards

[ShinyShoe]

Scott -what's the advantage of AIS PLB over a handheld DSC VHF? That will show up on every DSC set - and I think there are more of them than AIS equipped plotters. And anyone who has an AIS equipped plotter has probably also linked the NMEA out of the DSC to their plotter?

Same range in principle.

Rechargable VHF so your GPS fix should be fast as you can let it fix at start of journey while on charger.

[indaba1991]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Scott -what's the advantage of AIS PLB over a handheld DSC VHF? That will show up on every DSC set - and I think there are more of them than AIS equipped plotters. And anyone who has an AIS equipped plotter has probably also linked the NMEA out of the DSC to their plotter?

Same range in principle.

Rechargable VHF so your GPS fix should be fast as you can let it fix at start of journey while on charger.

I think you are right in both cases. But my biggest concern is the always relationship between the speed of any incident and resultant ability to call for assistance. In a RIB the worst case scenarios are a high speed collision, capsize, sinking, fire, loss of crew overboard. One has to consider how to send a call for assistance if the normal avenues are prevented - which they often are in a bad incident. I like the idea of having the rescue items attached to yourself. Will a console fitted VHF work if the craft is inverted for example? I would not wish to unduly worry Lisa's regarding her original query. A major incident on a RIB is unlikely and happens rarely - being prepared and having a good VHF understanding is a major step forward.

[SPR]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Scott -what's the advantage of AIS PLB over a handheld DSC VHF? That will show up on every DSC set - and I think there are more of them than AIS equipped plotters. And anyone who has an AIS equipped plotter has probably also linked the NMEA out of the DSC to their plotter? Same range in principle. Rechargable VHF so your GPS fix should be fast as you can let it fix at start of journey while on charger.

Belt n braces - not every body has there DSC radio on a two way link to plotter - I know prob less have AIS transceivers and those who have have DSC connected ...BUT ONLY a coastie have access to PLB signals ...

I have DSC hand held - my area of normal cruising i feel I don't need PLB for reception - carried as back up.

I believe the AIS PLB suites MY needs better as an additional method of contact rather than PLB. The two types one that can be added to life jacket and deploy automatically and S10 type both show in the link above.

I don't want it to activate WHEn I fall in harbours! so I think s10 is the option. So DSC radio handheld and AIS PLB is the way am thinking is the way forward for ME.

I also have the nautilus divers radio too !

I have collected radios to show folk on courses , also have a Dummy PLBs , AIS PLBs and Epirbs etc for students to see on course.

If my needs change and PLB comes back into to mix...

S.

[ashbypower]

Originally Posted by SPR

Belt n braces - not every body has there DSC radio on a two way link to plotter - S.

Not ALL radios have a Send / Receive Function for plotter comms, some are only "Listners"

[SPR]

Originally Posted by ashbypower

Not ALL radios have a Send / Receive Function for plotter comms, some are only "Listners"

yes - I know that ...

[SPR]

to answer the OP question - I would buy DSC handheld Radio before PLB or AIS PLB in your area.

S.

[ShinyShoe]

My thinking is if the HH DSC didn't get anyones attention then I'm less hopeful the AIS will as I think less people will have the capability. So I'd rather I was bouncing a ping off a satellite than shouting to deaf ears. If the choice was between AIS PLB and EPIRB PLB.

But if I was on a big boat (like the capsized yacht) AIS PLB would make sense for a MOB as they get a live position on their plotter to return to.

I think there are cases for both.

I also think if I was a yacht with two full EPIRBs then having every crew member with one seems an unusual approach. You'd have hoped they'd have mounted the EPIRBs to work in the event of a capsize, and I'd also have expected they'd have mounted a grab bag to be accessible giving them access to flares to signal with and a HH VHF to hail the passing boats with.

But on a more serious note why has no-one commented that a bucket of burning tar would have been a very effective signal for them...

[SPR]

but redundancy if radio is broken you have second method of communications - PLB or AIS PLB fit this bill.

can you tell me where is the best place to buy buckets of tar and best method of lighting them !

or you could do what I do carry a Greatland Rescue Laser INSTEAD

sorry - for shameless plug number 2! S.

EDIT: added instead to make sure people knows I was not suggestion using laser to light TAR!!!

[willk]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

But on a more serious note why has no-one commented that a bucket of burning tar would have been a very effective signal for them...

If it's that yacht in Cork, then it would be because she went t1ts up. They were too busy getting out of the damn thing. All their mates sailed past. Without question, despite being a bit slow, their PLBs saved them as it was getting late in the day. Having the RNLI nearby did no harm either.

I think that EVERY yacht should have a barrel of burning tar on it. Just in case

[ShinyShoe]

Greatland Rescue Laser is no good for lighting bucket of tar... ...someone designed it to be 'safe' ;-)

The guys testing laser flares for YM did it but omitted the instructions (they didn't do it using a laser... they did it to make a point that pyrotechnics may well have had their day)

[SPR]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Greatland Rescue Laser is no good for lighting bucket of tar... ...someone designed it to be 'safe' ;-) The guys testing laser flares for YM did it but omitted the instructions (they didn't do it using a laser... they did it to make a point that pyrotechnics may well have had their day)

ok - fixed my post above ! I carry GREATLAND Rescue Laser as the alternative to burning tar !

S.

[Sapphire]

This has all been a fascinating discussion so far - I can see that from the wealth of knowledge and years of experience there will always be a difference of opinion on some issues but I've taken so much from all these posts already. exactly what I needed!!!


So - smoke signals it is - what coal do I need to make the most smoke?

[Chris Caton]

well, if it's any help, I've just ordered a hh Icom IC-M91D from Force4 complete with spare battery for £250, excellent deal

[MustRib]

Originally Posted by chris.moody

Mustrib, based on your 1st hand experience (so glad it worked out well but it must have been very scary at the time) what are good and bad ways of affixing these devices to yourself or your LJ ?

I tend to clip the handheld into the lifeline loop on the front of my LJ (Spinlock Deckvest) and also have it tied on with a paracord lanyard. No idea if this setup would work or not after an impact and inflation.

Chris

Hi Chris..
After the event and while on the RI challenge itsef, I took to putting my replacement hand held into the big pocket on the front of the Typhoon dry suit. The whole episode has made me aware of how much your LJ and Dry suit should be considered together. I love the Baltic Rib Hybrid LJ I was wearing at the time of the ejection, but it denied access to the useful pockets of my dry suit. On the shoulder of the LJ, it had a loop for the aerial of the VHF and a set of webbing straps for the body. Ordinarily I would have thought this was enough to retain it in place. As this was the point of impact, I am not sure that any kind of lanyard would have helped, it may have kept the smashed backplate in place. The PLB was in a complete nest of webbing straps attached to the harness on the LJ. This was very secure.
I dont think I will be attaching the VHF in the same place on the Baltic LJ. You dont want to make it unusable because its a job to remove it from its fastenings/lanyard, but then equally you dont want it to float away in a dunking. Paracord lanyard sounds like the way to go, but keeping it in some sort of pocket, or though your LJ harness in a set of velcro webbing, would be preferable. Its something that I am looking at now as have added the radio capability to my Gecko, and need to find a suitable location for the HH Icom that feeds it.
Incidentally I wrote To Typhoon, and suggested some improvements to the Dry suit in terms of useability with an LJ inflated over the top, which I believe were discussed at an internal meeting.
I also spoke with an Irish Coastguard SAR pilot about drysuits, MOB casualties and recovery, for an article I am writing for issue 117 of PBR about the whole MOB experience. It was interesting stuff, and illuminating to hear what he had to say.

You asked about bad ways to fasten your HH radio, For years I used to run around with it just clipped over the harness of my LJ on my chest, really unsuitable!! but like most people, I never thought I would ever fall in, let alone go in at some speed, but I would guess that 99% of MOB from Ribs involve some speed.
The thought that I was carrying the VHF was enough for me, because I never thought any possible scenarios through.
The things I have taken away from my experience have been
that the sea and high speed open boats are capable of throwing you a curve ball, so be ready. Think about your safety kit as one integrated system, think how the individual components work with each other. Be prepared for your first rescue plan not to work, and have a secondary plan you can implement, specfically with means of raising the alarm.
Sorry Chris this went a bit off topic....

[chris.moody]

Mustrib; Thanks for the comments based on your experiences, I had not previously considered the access restrictions to safety items I carry once the lifejacket has inflated, or indeed if the act of inflation may damage any items.

Chris