Family Heritage

[Jonny Fuller]

In answer to a couple of points on this thread:

I don't think the XS ribs are Phantom derived.

I don't think the Tohatsu/Solent ribs are Phantom derived (though I think they like the idea of cashing in on the urban myth) but would stand corrected.

The Phantom 28 mould WAS loaned to Tornado. (FOC)., who made ribs from it's running surface, and failed to ever pay the agreed royalties to Steve Baker, saying that they'd never sold a boat. I sent pics to Steve of complete running P28 based Tornado ribs, he contacted them, they still never paid!

They also damaged the mould before returning it, and it had to be repaired before my 28 could be moulded in it.

I believe, as is well known, that the Leeway 6.3 & 8.3 are Phantom derived (Phantom 18 & 25 respectively)

[LAL BMC Ltd]

Re the Tornado to my knowledge not but you would have to check with Tornado direct on that.

Often a manufacturer will start with an exsisting hull and when the want to go bigger use that moulding as the sub frame to build a new wider and longer plug on top of, but apart from being the frame to fix the new hull skins to and add spray rails it has no input in to the new hull.

XS: How you could adapt a 28' boat to a 6-7 m rib I am not sure and 100% the XS was designed from scratch. The bow of a 28' hull which would give a 33' rib would be out of all proportion on a 20' + craft.

The work involved in changing an exsisting hull design is MORE than starting from scratch.

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by LAL BMC Ltd

The Reply is to Leeway Composites;

As to relevance of comments you need to be very sure of your facts before you print what is effectively libel.

Tornado bought Elite Ribs in the early 90's and there was a question over the origin of the Elite 780, which Tornado substantially modified in to the 7.3, a boat that has not been made for 10 years by Tornado

All other craft in the current Tornado range are developed from their own plugs that can all be seen at the Tornado factory.

XS again have plug up development of all their craft.

If you wish to disagree please put your case in writing to me and we will take it further !

sorry question answered just didnt read last posts

[benc]

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by LAL BMC Ltd

The work involved in changing an exsisting hull design is MORE than starting from scratch.

That is true if you're a *Boatbuilder*, but if you're a *Laminator* it's a little different.
Why else would splashing even exist?

PS. this is not a slur on Laminators, just pointing out that laminating and boatbuilding are very different jobs, and require very different skills. I won't even start on design

[tcwozere]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

In answer to a couple of points on this thread:
I don't think the Tohatsu/Solent ribs are Phantom derived (though I think they like the idea of cashing in on the urban myth) but would stand corrected....

....I believe, as is well known, that the Leeway 6.3 & 8.3 are Phantom derived (Phantom 18 & 25 respectively)

If the pictures Richard originally posted were correctly identified by ADS, why do the first two's hull look, (to my eye,) almost identical, whereas the similarities between the 3rd photo and the other two aren't as obvious?

[benc]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

If the pictures Richard originally posted were correctly identified by ADS, why do the first two's hull look, (to my eye,) almost identical, whereas the similarities between the 3rd photo and the other two aren't as obvious?

I agree, Leeways hull looks more similar to that on my Tornado

[ADS]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

If the pictures Richard originally posted were correctly identified by ADS, why do the first two's hull look, (to my eye,) almost identical, whereas the similarities between the 3rd photo and the other two aren't as obvious?

According to Richard I correctly identified all 3, now wheres my anorak!!

[Jonny Fuller]

Actually, I don't think the first two are the same, similar, yes, but not from the same hull.

The third is different all together

1= phantom evo, 'based' on Phantom 23 hard boat, but altered in the chines. (by Steve Baker himself, for Neil Holmes)

2= no idea

3= Phantom 25 running surface (early 80's constant deadrise racing hardboat, not at all well suited to the typical use ribs are bought for.

[ADS]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Actually, I don't think the first two are the same, similar, yes, but not from the same hull.

The third is different all together

1= phantom evo, 'based' on Phantom 23 hard boat, but altered in the chines. (by Steve Baker himself, for Neil Holmes)

2= no idea

3= Phantom 25 running surface (early 80's constant deadrise racing hardboat, not at all well suited to the typical use ribs are bought for.

2. Is deffo a Solent RIB JF

Agree with all the above

[tcwozere]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Actually, I don't think the first two are the same, similar, yes, but not from the same hull.

The third is different all together

1= phantom evo, 'based' on Phantom 23 hard boat, but altered in the chines. (by Steve Baker himself, for Neil Holmes)

2= no idea

3= Phantom 25 running surface (early 80's constant deadrise racing hardboat, not at all well suited to the typical use ribs are bought for.

Thanks for the clarification..

Interesting to see that Steve Baker redesigned the chines when making a rib.. Is it to do with your comment in 3, and if so, can you explain, (in easy terms.. ) why?

Also, if someone was going to splash a Phantom hull to make a rib, would they have not been better off splashing the Evo rib hull??

[benc]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

Also, if someone was going to splash a Phantom hull to make a rib, would they have not been better off splashing the Evo rib hull??

Im guessing a Phantom Evolutions are harder to get hold of?

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by benc

Im guessing a Phantom Evolutions are harder to get hold of?

Spot on.

A shabby old phantom 18, or 25 can be bought for peanuts, they've been around for 30 years in some cases (P18) The sort of useless lowlife that does this kinda stuff, wouldn't generally be able to put his hands on a recent boat like the evo.

Just spoke with Steve Baker, it seems Elite ribs (mentioned earlier by BMC) were using legitimate running surfaces from the Phantom range, as were Tornado with their smaller boats, though this was a while back i think.

The stuff about the Phantom 28/Tornado 9.5 all happened about '96/'97 and is fact, not speculation.

Crompton also stole/used the Phantom 25 hull (like Leeway), Steve chased it up, but as usual, there's little that can be done.

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

Thanks for the clarification..

Interesting to see that Steve Baker redesigned the chines when making a rib.. Is it to do with your comment in 3, and if so, can you explain, (in easy terms.. ) why?

No, the 23 is a quite different running surface to the 25 (Phantoms that is) with the 23 being designed as a forgiving 'pleasure boat' hull. it has more warp in the deadrise, so more like a Scorpion design (loosely speaking) than the constant deadrise of mine, or a 25.

I think the extra beam put into the chines (that's 'chimes' for leeway) is probably to help it plane more easily (lower speeds) and to increase the room within the boat, as the Phantom hardboats are pretty narrow, and the tubes when fitted encroach into that already small beam.

[swginn]

Here Jonny, you're fairly well versed in hull design, boatbuilding etc. Any idea who built my XS?? Not worried about the design, If Mr. Lock says they were designed from scratch, I take his word.

Just curious as to who builds them, was supposed to be out in the public last yr but i'd say thats not gonna happen. Quality build though, very solid and all going strong after takin all I can throw at it! I suppose that's the important bit, really. PM me

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by swginn

Any idea who built my XS??

iz naim iz johnn an hee smowkes owld olborn rowl upps

av a luk att de fewel tannk. de wan dat i sean ad de deelivery address ritten onn itt inn blakk innk


gaRF

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Actually, I don't think the first two are the same, similar, yes, but not from the same hull.

The third is different all together

1= phantom evo, 'based' on Phantom 23 hard boat, but altered in the chines. (by Steve Baker himself, for Neil Holmes)

2= no idea

3= Phantom 25 running surface (early 80's constant deadrise racing hardboat, not at all well suited to the typical use ribs are bought for.

I've just been doing some overlays with the Phantom evo pic (1) and the Solent rib (2) and want now to change my story.

The detail that I thought seporated the two, now looks to me to be a simple but clever 'we've modded it', or, 'No, it's our own design' situation.

I now think that the Solent (if that's what picture 2 is) is a P23, with the fwd termination of the spray rails altered slightly. Just flatted out a little early, and left with the blunt end a few inches short of the stem, whereas the evo rails dissapear naturally into the stem.

In conclusion, Richard B was right (IMHO)

[tcwozere]

So the moral, (moral being an appropriate word.. ) of the story is, if your going to splash something, splash something that was designed for the job in question..

But the real moral seems to be, ask.. This is something that never made sense.. If the Evo in the picture is the one I think it is, it's up for @ 17K, with a damaged/repaired hull.. If as you said previously, Steve Baker would be "happy" with a couple of hundred quid per copy sold, It would have made more sense to have asked, used the tried and tested Evo rib hull, and sold the finished product for more than 11-13k.. Even taking away Steve's commision, there's still a very nice profit to be made.. And you get the bonus of being able to admit publically your rib is based on something thats well respected in the design/boating world..

[Jono]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

....But the real moral seems to be, ask.. ....

Bingo !

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by tcwozere

So the moral, (moral being an appropriate word.. ) of the story is, if your going to splash something, splash something that was designed for the job in question..

But the real moral seems to be, ask.. This is something that never made sense.. If the Evo in the picture is the one I think it is, it's up for @ 17K, with a damaged/repaired hull.. If as you said previously, Steve Baker would be "happy" with a couple of hundred quid per copy sold, It would have made more sense to have asked, used the tried and tested Evo rib hull, and sold the finished product for more than 11-13k.. Even taking away Steve's commision, there's still a very nice profit to be made.. And you get the bonus of being able to admit publically your rib is based on something thats well respected in the design/boating world..

I agree whole-heartedly with all that, except that the copyright to the Evo derivitive of the phantom 23 belongs to Neil Holmes, who, as a rib builder himself, may not be so keen to have someone else building what would effectively be the same boat.

The Solent is I suspect, a spalsh of a P23, rather than of an Evolution rib.

The fact that Steve Baker did deals with Elite rib, Evolution ribs, and Tornado ribs, just goes to prove that deals 'WERE' there to be done!