Family Heritage

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

the copyright to the Evo derivitive of the phantom 23 belongs to Neil Holmes

. . . and anyone who has seen the size of Neil would probably decide that splashing an Evo would probably not be in their best interests!

John

[Pete7]

I think the missing link from Phantom to Solents goes something like this. In 1995 BWM wanted a new fast race boat, which suddenly appeared in the shape of the XP21. At the time BWM (at there Emsworth Quay workshop) were trying various exotic materials like kevlar and carbon fibre. Indeed Paul explained that early attempts ran into problems when they had difficulty cutting the cloth prior to lay up. I seem to remember being told the new boat was based on a Phantom, although not being part of the hard boat racing fraternity the implications were not immediately obvious. I also saw a FGT on a podium at the Feb Poole boat show about that time and wondered what all the fuss was about as everyone crowded around. Didn't realise he was such a knowledgable and likeable chap who would inspire some interesting threads later on Ribnet , but it did give the rest of us a chance to talk to Ribcraft (a one man band at the time) whilst the tyre kickers were otherwise occupied.

Anyway, BWM only built a few XP21s mainly down to the cost. From memory a young Mike Deacon raced one that year, in all yellow with twin 60 Yams. A minor misshap with the fuel calculation sadly cost him the Solent Race in his class, still he has done rather well since.

In 1998 BWM folded, however I think Porters in Tarquin Harbour round the corner were building the hulls whilst BWM fitted them out in Emsworth. (BWM moved opposite to Porters about 96). So when BWM folded Porters would have had access to the moulds or may have even been the owners. Since Porters also supplied Tohatsu there hulls I think they came from the same mould and from Tohatsu Solents developed.

Which Phantom hull was used I am not sure, but I may have some keel shots of an early Tohatsu at home which JF might recognise.

Pete

[Jonny Fuller]

mmnn, very interesting!

That Lemmer fella has 'waxed up' a few bottoms in his time eh!

you ribnobbas are a dodgy lot.

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by ADS

Official Phantom UK 5.5M RIB, photo courtesy of Boatmad

I'd like to point out that 'phantom uk' is NOT Phantom as in Steve Bakers company.

Two guys bought the moulds & rights to the Phantom 16 and 18 hardboats from Steve when he retired, they have now built a rib based on a modified Phantom16 hull with their own design console. This is what has been posted here. (the rastafarian one)

So no connection with the Evo range of ribs at all.

Just wanted to clarify that.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

mmnn, very interesting!

That Lemmer fella has 'waxed up' a few bottoms in his time eh!

you ribnobbas are a dodgy lot.

Paul Lemmer (Gawd blessim) when asked by yours truly in 1998 prior to placing an order for a BWM DS21 (the wide version not the narrow race one) told me that he had designed the hull!

In them days I knew considerably less about ribs and hardbotes than I do now. Paul is a lovely chap, great guy to have a beer with. I just wouldnt buy another boat from him!

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Alan

Paul Lemmer (Gawd blessim) when asked by yours truly in 1998 prior to placing an order for a BWM DS21 (the wide version not the narrow race one) told me that he had designed the hull!

In them days I knew considerably less about ribs and hardbotes than I do now. Paul is a lovely chap, great guy to have a beer with. I just wouldnt buy another boat from him!

MMmmnn. I'll share a few wee pics I took last year, of a boat that was being loaded into a container, and exported to some far away continent. It appeared to be a Ring hull, but I don't know any more than that. The owner had just bought the boat from Mr 'L', along with a new engine.

The pics show some lovely work that had been done to 'tidy it up'. The really odd bit, was the bit underneath that looked like there was timber of some sort in the hull skin itself!

He did (the new owner) tell me the price he'd just paid, I can't remember the number, but I do remember feeling dizzy.

Edit> These pics are of the bottom of the hull.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Alan

told me that he had designed the hull!

hmm, lets park that one for a dark winters night. Over to JF then, photos of a 99 Tohatsu.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Richard B

Pete, Would you like me to demonstrate how to keep a fast RIB level at speed?

Richard thats a very kind offer. I have always thought it would be fun to charter a day with this chap Good Guy but if your offering to teach me from your experience I would be delighted, you never know what you can pick up from an expert Can I bring a friend ? Stu also tells me he would like to learn how to drive a Scorpion.

Originally Posted by Richard B

Are you on drugs!?!

NO and if your offering to supply, no thanks. Please ensure there are no funny cigarettes on Blue Ice before stu and I have our training.

Pete

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Pete7

hmm, lets park that one for a dark winters night. Over to JF then, photos of a 99 Tohatsu.

Pete

There's a small detail, a few feet along the inner spray rail of that first pic that along with the other similarities, confirms for me that the Tohatsu rib is indeed a Phantom 23 splash, tho' maybe shortened slightly (what length is a tohatsu?)

I read somewhere on here once, that the 'Solent version' had a few minor changes done to the hull, it would appear, that one such change was the 'red herring' I spoke about earlier, ie, the shortening of the sprail rail detail where it approaches the stem.

The jigsaw is coming together.

If the Tohatsu was made in '95, the donor boat would have to have been quite new! probably less than a year old.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Pete7

also tells me he would like to learn how to drive a Scorpion.

oi deer boyy

hee didunt saiy hee wud showw yew ow too dryve a scawpiun yew nobbur.

dis iz wot hee sed.....

Originally Posted by Richard B

You need to learn to drive a performance RIB dear boy

7.5metre + wiv a poksy 200 an a topp spead ov less dan fiffty aynt noe perfawmence bote. an heers mee finkin yew new abowt botes.

wee nead a chinnskracher smylie onn dis syte

gArf

[Pete7]

Jon, the Tohatsu is 6.6m, thats length overall so chopping off the rear tubes and front flange say 19 feet. Your right though the Solent has been changed and the chines are different from Tohatsus. Interestingly the rear 3m of the Tohatsu hull is almost a constant shape rather than a warped V which would change gradually, a warp would of course be quite difficult to chop a metre out of. The bottom chine to keel is odd in that it doesn't match the other chines shape or follow the V shape. In a stern sectional view, the chine outside vertical surfaces measure 220, 420, 620 and finally 820 mm from the centre line of the boat. The deadrise was 20'.6" by calculation and 21 degrees by measurement, the difference could be down to errors in measuring the hull.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by The Garfish

7.5metre + wiv a poksy 200 an a topp spead ov less dan fiffty aynt noe perfawmence bote. an heers mee finkin yew new abowt botes. gArf

Oh, how disappointing : perhaps he should buy a Tohatsu for his next boat then

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Jon, the Tohatsu is 6.6m, thats length overall so chopping off the rear tubes and front flange say 19 feet. Your right though the Solent has been changed and the chines are different from Tohatsus. Interestingly the rear 3m of the Tohatsu hull is almost a constant shape rather than a warped V which would change gradually, a warp would of course be quite difficult to chop a metre out of. The bottom chine to keel is odd in that it doesn't match the other chines shape or follow the V shape. In a stern sectional view, the chine outside vertical surfaces measure 220, 420, 620 and finally 820 mm from the centre line of the boat. The deadrise was 20'.6" by calculation and 21 degrees by measurement, the difference could be down to errors in measuring the hull.

Pete

The deadrise on a P23 is indeed pretty constant for the first half of the running surface (from the transom, fwd), then the deadrise warps into a finer entry.
The feature of the innermost spray rail to the keel being a different deadrise than outboard of the inner rail, is the feature I was refering to in my earlier post, and I think fairly unique to the phantoms designed from 1986>. It's kinda like a pad keel that emerges from the inner rails about 5 feet fwd of the transom, probably less on the shortened Tohatsu. this inner pad has a deadrise of circa 10 degrees.

Edit>

Just been looking again at the pic of the '99 Tohatsu hull. another give away to it being shortened, is that the point where the running surface meets the transom should/would be a very sharp corner, thus the water breaks away from the transom cleanly at speed, in that pic, it appears the edge is radiused, this would be where a 'plant' or 'dam' would have been fixed in the mould to create the transom at the desired length, and a plastercine fillet wiped around the interface tween 'plant' and 'mould' to seal the tool.

If you get a chance, measure the distance from the transom, to the detail on the innermost spray rail where the pad keel ends. I'd bet that the difference in that dimension, and the same dimension on an Evo, is also the difference in the boat length tween Tohatsu, and Evo 7.5.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Richard thats a very kind offer.

That's the kina guy I am!

Originally Posted by Pete7

Can I bring a friend ?

Aren't you allowed out on your own? You'll be telling me you've got mittens sewn into your sleeves next!

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Richard B

You'll be telling me you've got mittens sewn into your sleeves next!

Nowt wrong with that! I've got em meself! and a 'L' & 'R' on me plympsoles too!

[Richard B]

I've got M&S on my socks!

That doesn't help does it?

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

The Phantom 28 mould WAS loaned to Tornado. (FOC)., who made ribs from it's running surface,

JF, I remember Tornado openly advertising their big rib as being based on a Phantom hull. I had a brochure with that info in it. It must have been about 9-10yrs ago.

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by LAL BMC Ltd

Re the Tornado, to my knowledge not, but you would have to check with Tornado direct on that.

Surely as sole agent for Tornado sales, you would know 'exactly' how many of the big ribs have been sold, ie, the 9.5m and up, would you care to share that information with me?

I don't need to check with Tornado at all, as I know for a fact they've paid nothing (zero), so the only unknown factor, is just how many they sold, this will be the exact number they also 'failed' to pay for.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Pete7

if your offering to supply

i sean im deelin rownd de bakk ov dryvers worf

hee duz sum nise deels inn de fynist grayde colombiun calpoll, moroccan gowld grype worter ann ifn yew arr innto de reely hevvy stuf, jonsons bayby oyl.

gaRf

[Jonny Fuller]

JW, yeah, 9-10 years is about right, see quote below:

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Spot on.

Just spoke with Steve Baker, it seems Elite ribs (mentioned earlier by BMC) were using legitimate running surfaces from the Phantom range, as were Tornado with their smaller boats, though this was a while back i think.

The stuff about the Phantom 28/Tornado 9.5 all happened about '96/'97 and is fact, not speculation.

Crompton also stole/used the Phantom 25 hull (like Leeway), Steve chased it up, but as usual, there's little that can be done.