Feature follow-up: Pacific Console Change - Page 3

Pete7 · 17 July 2003, 21:56

Nev, sorry only just seen your post as I have been busy with the surveyor.

The prop that was on the boat is corroded so can't see the prop markings so I am guesing its 25". Also when I ordered a new one from Lancing its a different prop shape, (blade thickness, distance it sits of the hub etc. Tried to buy one from the firm that makes them I was told "no chance mate we only sell to Lancing". I have a feeling that its a volvo prop which could be interesting. Need to take it into the local volvo agent to see if he can match the markings that can be read. "807" on the side and P12345 or something on the back of the hub.

My engine has been rebuilt then run up on Mermaids Dyno and the certificate says 198 Hp at 2600 rpm which is were the 29/30 knots come from (with a 21" prop from Lancing). As you say 145 as standard and thats about 20 knots. With all the Coding stuff in and the extra fuel I am down to 28 knots now.

Also the previous owner said the rev counter was playing up, so given this it could be that the problem was an over large prop fitted by the previous owner and a dodgy gauge. There is a diggy gauge on the net for $45 which fits the injector pipes so might have a go with one of these

http://www.tinytach.com/diesel.html

What do you mean shortening the engine box is an easy job! you said it took bloody hours to do on a previous post, lol, which is why I am leaving it well alone for the moment.

See that P22 for 10k in cornwall sold for the asking price in a week. Seems there is good demand for them.

Regards Pete

Pete7 · 17 July 2003, 22:09

Nev, the other thing is the engine box is used for seating which I don't want to loose but would be interested in some pics of yours.

Also met Dave who runs a P24 version out of Lyme Bay for diving.
His console is at the back on the engine box which gives loads of room.

http://www.discoveryribcharter.com/

Yep 180 hp is reaonably easy to obtain by tweeking the pump, but 200 hp and you are in for new pistons and con rods etc.

The RN have some P22 in the dockyard at the moment which are scrap, I assume they will come up for sale at some point shortly.

Pete

Pete7 · 17 July 2003, 22:10

Hey Daniel, did you ever find that converter ? it would be worth a few beers

Pete

Daniel · 18 July 2003, 08:42

Pete,

I was thinking the same thing when reading this thread last night and feeling rather guilty about it.

I can't find it but i will - i'm just sorry it's taken so long already... this moving house thing takes months to get sorted not just weeks. I'm not usually into making wild claims i can't stick to.

I'm still interested in your boat too but havent pulled my finger out... i'm a nice chap really... just a little disorganised!

Pete7 · 19 July 2003, 07:53

Hi Daniel, yes saw you browsing this forum last night so thought I would mention it. I am just a poor charter boat skipper trying to earn an honest living. So don't want you to feel guilty or anything, but... lol.

If your still interested in the Ribtec she has just had the engine replaced with a mint 97 150 hp Mariner. You are more than welcome to come down and view. Seems everyone is moving house at the moment, pepper too, one huge game of monopoly. Let me know when your ready.

Neville · 19 July 2003, 15:21

We have 3 p22s that we are refitting at the moment for resale. I always find with these boats that the decks are prone to a few problems. At the back they go slightly soggy, gnerally only in a few small local areas. To lift the deck is not a major problem, but quite time consuming. It takes us about a week with 2 people to do the whole deck, including taking the tubes off & refitting them, painting, antislip, console off etc. The main problem is that Halmatic for some reason used brass screws in the decks (and millions of them!) which of course go soft like cheese after a few years and alot sometimes need to be drilled out. As for the back conversion, we cut the engine hatch short a bit, and put a small deck beam in, you dont get alot of exra space, but i think in these boats every little bit is worth it. I will post a few pics of the boats that we are doing at present over the next few days.

As for the props, i am getting really distressed ! The standard prop for the navy boats at 145 hp was 16 3/4 x 21 pitch. I have put these on different P22s but all ex navy, and had completely different results, it does seem that they are the best all rounder though for a 145 hp engine. I have ordered a 16 3/4 x 23 which comes next week, and i will let you know what we get with that. Although I do believe that prop sizing is an art, at present I am finding it a bit of trial and error, and it gets expensive too! The props that we have used are michigan stamped, i think lancing sell them for about £260 + vat which isnt the end of the world as long as you dont order the wrong one!

As for the volvo thing, you could be correct, as on lancings website under sternpowr prop prices, they mention volvo adaptors.....

Pete7 · 21 July 2003, 10:54

Nev, in addition to Michigan, Lancing are also buying in props from:

http://www.sillette.co.uk/

But they won't sell me one as Lancing have a "closed shop" on them with bulk ordering. Sillette actually make them to a Lancing spec.

Still want to look at the volvo option.

Pete

Neville · 03 August 2003, 23:04

Here is a picture taken last week, it shows a p22 with its old transom insert removed, and a new one bonded in. Also the fibreglass strentheners have been cut back to allow access for removing the old plywood insert.

The original builders in their wisdom put these plywood inserts in and made most of them go all the way down to the base of the hull. The result is that when water gets in, the base of the insert slowly gets soggy and rots away. This has happened in the majority of the p22s that we have had in. Its not a major issue and the hull is still strong even with the soggy transom, but cutting the old one out is a pig of a job. It took over 4 full days for one person to complete it.

A half height insert has been bonded in, and convensional grp will be used to strenthen up the area below the insert. This area has to be strong as it takes the weight of the sterndrive (100 kgs+) and it also takes the thrust of the sterndrive. (160hp!).

The decks have been removed as there were a few damp areas noticed when we stripped back the original non slip coating, which had gone a bit soft. The original MOD non slip coating can cover a multitude of problems, so dont remove it!

I will put another picture up over the next few days when i get my camera back which shows the grp work done and the new engine bay bulkhead which has been put in, shortening the engine cover by approx 10".

Neville · 05 August 2003, 02:03

Ok, Seb. To answer your question about engine power. Most ex MOD p22s were sold with either the Mermaid tubo 4 Dorset or the Mermaid turbo 4 Dover block. This in turn would power a SternPowr drive spinning normally a 16 3/4 x 21 prop. Although Mermaid sell these as a 180 hp engine, when the Navy bought them they were generally rated between 120hp and 145 hp (dover). The dover block being the slightly later block.

So when they are released from the MOD they are all generally no more than 145 hp.

If you want more power out of them, the first bit is easy. Simply up the fuel on the fuel pump a bit by turning the screw with the locking nut in a bit. Its a bit hit and miss as you wont know how much power you are getting. If you have access to a dyno, its simple.

The most (generally) you can get this way is 160-165 hp before the engine is running to rich. ie to much fuel & not enough air.

The next stage becomes a problem. To get any more will generally require either internal alterations or replacement fuel pump & injectors, and also the turbo needs upgrading. On some engines the bottom end needs upgrading along with different pistons. - although the last alteration (pistons & bottom end) I have never come accross on a dover block.

So 160 - 165 hp is the easiest option & it costs nothing. If you turn the fuel up without access to the dyno, you will immediately notice acceleration difference. To increase top speed you will need to change the prop pitch up a bit. If you are doing this without the aid of a dyno when you have too much fuel the engine will smoke a bit, although as i said it is a bit hit and miss doing it this way.

Before pushing the engine too far I would open the bottom end up (if you are mechanically able or have some help!) and check the condition of the bearings & crank. You may be able to get the fuel settings for the pump from mermaid & in that case you can take the pump to a injection specialist and get it reset to that power.

The easiest way to check the power output when it was made is to contact Mermaid with the serial number (on top of the rocker cover) and they will tell you what HP it was made for. Good luck..

Pete7 · 20 August 2003, 10:19

Nev, how did you get on with the 23" prop. Am thinking about doing the same as I have plenty of power and think its running at full revs with ease so could improve the speed by upping the pitch. Speed with 21" now down to 26 knots following antifouling but it will do this with one person on board or six.

Pete

Seb · 31 August 2003, 09:01

Hi there,

Would very much appreciate some help from the P22 owners out there in identifying some parts that are missing from my boat.

Engine box rear:

There is a large hold (approx the same size as the exhaust) which has at some point had a fitting around it as there are 6 screw holes. There is nothing connected to this and i cannot see its purpose. Any ideas?

2 x holes next to each other just above the deck level approx 50mm diameter.
Again, not connected to anything. Purpose?

To the left of the large hole, 1 x metal vent fitting with an internal inch tube to attach a pipe of some sort to. Purpose?

2x wooden mounts that appear to be made to have a rod of some sort stored between them. Purpose? (similar but larger than the dipstick holder).

4 x holes arranged in a square shape (length of side approx 200mm). Internal metal fixings. ideas?

Engine box starboard

There are 4x large bolts in the side of the box towards the aft that are not holding anything. Should there be an original fitting here?

Engine box lid

Aft of the porthole there is a brass fitting which has a missing cap and is therefore only an open hole. What is the purpose of this?

Instrument panel

Should there be some sort of protective cover for this a there are
missing fixing all of the way around it?

Console side starboard

3x power sockets. The two upper are 'NUC light socket' and 'special ops light socket'. The lower ones label/plaque is missing. What should this read?

Any help/advice would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,

SEB

Neville · 31 August 2003, 12:36

Seb, The big hole on the back of the cover with the screws round it is to take the bilge pump. Its a henderson MK V pump. The bits of wood sticking out are the bracket for the holding the lever for operating the pump when not in use. The two large holes that you also talk about are for the bilge pump pipes.

The chrome vent on the back vents the engine (if i remember correctly) , and goes to a box in the sump on some models). The round fitting on the top of the cover near that 'porthole' is a fire extinguisher injection point.

There is a protective shroud for the console. This gets eaten by the sun and falls apart quickly. You could have something simple made up by a local sailmakers. The label on the side of the console should read 'charging socket' which is of course 24volts. If you dont own a 24 volt charger its quite useless as with some of the other electrics in the console.

Neville · 31 August 2003, 12:42

Pete, with a 23" pitch on the back we got 29 knots last week. This was with 165 hp, half a tank of fuel and 2 people. Acceleration wasnt good and I dont thonk that the engine quite reached wot. Also we hadnt pumped out the bilges and I think there could have been a little weight down there. I think the best alrounder prop for 165 hp is 22" which got us 27 knots. Also our boat would have been a bit lighter than yours not carrying the liferaft.

Seb · 31 August 2003, 18:06

Brilliant! Thanks a million- will save me messing about trying to find parts that look like they should belong there!

Any ideas about the fire system? Is there suppost to be a detector in the engine box? If so, do you know where i can get one from?

Cheers again,

SEB

Oh, did you ever get a pic of the a-frame that you were having made?

Neville · 31 August 2003, 21:47

Seb, There is a fire detector ('Firemaster') on most MOD p22s, the system is in the console and they are normally mounted directly in line with the round henderson hatch on the side. The system sounds an alarm, switches on a light and shuts the engine down.

The setup is quite expensive, and I think its a bit of a waste of time. The engine bay has to get quite hot to set it off, by that time quite alot of damage would have been done. Next, it normally shuts the engine down. Well that really screws you up cos not only is the boat on fire, its stopped, and once you have put the fire out, the electrics will be toasted so you might not start it again.

A good idea on petrols but not diesels where diesel fuel does not ignite very easily.

Probably the best way would be to install a couple of automatic extinguishers in the engine bay. The one problem with not switching the engine off is that the intake of the engine running can deplete the extinguishing agent, but I think I would prefer to be in control.

Ive not managed to send you that photo because my camera has packed up. Get it back this week....

Pete7 · 01 September 2003, 09:20

Nev, copy of the wiring diagram e mailed to you this morning and the hard copy is in the post.

If you want to sell the 23" prop I would be interested in it. Could you bring it down to Weymouth ?

Pete

Seb · 01 September 2003, 18:03

Cheers for that!

However, the firemaster and alarm are still fitted inside the console and seem to be perfectly in tact.

I have traced a wire from this system into the engine bay and it has been cut off so i assume that the actual detector doesnt work! (although the alarm keeps going off and a light says 'fault') but i think this is because the instrument panel is in bit and is shorting somewhere?

Is there just a basic smoke detector that will connect to the cable in the engine bay and if so, assuming that all of the other electrics in the system work properly, will it work? - or are there more parts that i will need?

It seems pointless having half a system there that doesnt work so i may as well get it going!

Cheers for the help again.

Look forward to hearing from you.

SEB

Neville · 01 September 2003, 20:16

Seb, the ones that we have seen are fire detectors rather than smoke detectors. At the end of the day it will still basically just open or close the circuit going to the alarm. Probably better buying the sensor from the makers of the fire system or ripping the rest out. The sensor is located about 18" directly below the hole for the bilge pump. It is a grey box with a 3 inch long small round thingy pointing forward out of it. You never know, could be worth phoning the makers of the system (not Halmatic though) as it may be cheap enough to buy. On the other hand....!

Pete, sorry about that prop, it cost £300 and is on a customers boat now!

I do know of a dealer in sternpowr bits who has a few standard 16 3/4 x 21 navy props for £200 each. (SR Marine, Mermaid Marine agent). I will however not renege on that deal with the whisky though! May see you at the weekend.

Pete7 · 12 September 2003, 15:41

Nev, who is SR Marine, just had to pay £300 to Lancing after I crunched a prop in Portland Harbour.

The stern power drives are great at removing lobster pot markers though, took two out during the week which were invisable.

Don't worry about the wiskey can't stand the stuff. However the girlfriend loves the shortcut biscuits you have up North. A box would be worth loads of brownie points.

Pete

Neville · 12 September 2003, 22:15

SR Marine are in Plymouth, 'Stan Gillam'. He has alot of sternpowr parts, and knows the drives inside out as he used to recon them for the MOD. He has new ones for £200, I think they are all 16 3/4 x 21 though. His mobile is 07836 637415. Office 01752 815050.

Got the paperwork through from you. Thanks a million, I had most of it but was missing an important part of the ignition circuit on our manual. Also the C of G detail was interesting (well for squares like me it is interesting!).

Biscuits will be down this week. I am on the south coast at the moment delivering a boat, but am heading back up north on sunday or I would have looked you up....