Finding boating buddies

[Poly]

Originally Posted by boristhebold

Best just stop it or the authorities may come down hard, I dont think they will be reasonable about it at all.

It’s not as clear cut as that. There are sailing crew finding app/services around that essentially provide a crew matching service where people with boats and those without can get together. There are even dating agencies working on this basis. If it’s OK for some wafis then why not for Bruce?* Probably however you only see the matches once you are joined up rather than a public post? Possibly the MCA have a different view for people who have an active interest in boats being friends than random people who live in your town. Perhaps that is why Bruce thinks ribnet is not really public - it is a preselected group of people with an interest in ribs. If the MCA disagree with him they may pursue their enforcement action or they may not feel confident enough at winning a case where there is some element of greyness; but unfortunately if someone was to be hurt (and that may be through no fault of Bruce) it is most likely that it would come under scrutiny, in which case I would hope Bruce has got their agreement in writing.

What he would be better doing is just “advertising” by word of mouth and coordinating in a genuinely private group - its far more credible that someone is your friend then.

Of course if Bruce is going on a specific trip he can post on the cruising page and see if any other boats want to join him. He can even say something like “I’ll have two spare seats - ribnet members welcome (contributions to fuel costs appreciated) - PM me to make arrangements” and that would seem to be in line with what many before him will have done. The difference between that and the post at the start of this thread is surely not too subtle for him to see?


*ive not checked if any of these services claim to be MCA cleared; these is a similar service for people sharing private aircraft without commercial certificates etc - at least one of those apps has CAA clearance for the way it operates.

[xpertski]

Mhb I agree with you 100%!

This is what ribnet is about and I don’t see Bruce is doing anything wrong. Perhaps better phrasing when posting publicly would help avoid the legal police, but I see it as an honest way of sharing fun together and just being up front that it would be nice for anyone joining to contribute. He didn’t put it across as a ‘fare’. It would also be something I would expect to provide if I enjoyed a friends rib for a trip knowing myself what the costs are - it’s only polite. I would ask that friend how much fuel cost they used and offer a proportion. For friends coming on my rib I would hope they would offer to contribute and I would be happy to indicate what would be a reasonable contribution if they offer - but would not require it (if I offer to take them I bear the costs as I offered - doesn’t remove what is polite or not though). If my friends never offered to contribute though and just want freebies, if I was wealthy enough to continue, fine, if not then it may question how good friends they are to take advantage and may have a bearing on future trip offers - we all want polite friends right. It’s the same principle as sharing meal costs, buying a round of beer, sharing car fuel costs on a trip (where the driver still is a duty of care) - it sharing amongst friends and everyone being polite in sharing cost burdens. It’s not commercial as Bruce set out.

I think much confusion is being made over when it becomes a commercial operation, however, he is not a registered business, isn’t offering trips for profit and only says its fair for voluntary contributions. If taking a friend or new friends on your rib we’re a crime without coding many on this forum would fall foul of those rules. Does this prohibit making new friends? It shouldn’t. Ribnet is about connecting people with a common interest and posting on here to share a trip is a way of making new friends. Before that connection two people were not friends, after the ribnet connection and they agree it would be nice to spend time together, they are friends. Does a distinction need to be made when that person becomes a good enough friend to not be commercial? I think it’s being taken too far.

Also whilst coding makes sense for commercial ventures, does this mean that everyone else without coding isn’t safe? To my mind it’s sensible for paying passengers where payment is required (ie don’t come on the rib unless a fee is paid) so that they know it’s fitting certain standards. No coding doesn’t mean you aren’t safe and further doesn’t exempt you from negligence as court cases have proven in recent years. As the captain of any boat you have a duty of care to your passengers. Coding or not.

Bruce - I would happily class you as a friend from shared communications on here and would be more than happy to share a trip with you - as it’s the fair and polite thing to do, I would happily offer to contribute. Likewise you can come on my rib.

Peace all! Please don’t shoot - just my opinions [emoji23]

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mhb100

A bit harsh Will.

willk is hundreds of miles away in another jurisdiction but I suspect some of the local rib trip operators are thinking the same way and that’s why Bruce has had a “visit”.

Whats the line? Turning up on a friend of a friend's boat and giving then petrol money would be wrong, but turning up with a 20l can or a meal voucher would not?

no, if you want to know the rules you need to read them. It covers in kind as well as in cash. These pesky lawmakers have thought of the loopholes!

Technically I should get anyone that goes on my rib (domestically) some form of disclaimer/waiver to complete and I should do the same on someone else's boat, in case a friend or a friends spouse decides to take legal action over some unforseen event. Does a friend really behave different than a stranger in this crazy legal world of ours? But I don't.

Id suggest that the moment you ask someone to complete some paperwork you have just provided evidence to the jury that this was not a normal “friendship”

I guess it comes down to when does a client become a friend and when does an acquaintance become a friend, and if you are a friend then what's the friendly way to share the costs of your day out together?

PS if I become a ribnet friend (via rib net messaging) with Bruce I guess that mean I can act as a friend would without consequence?

Only the courts can decide what parliament meant by friends; but if you can’t tell the investigating officer their real name, the town they live in, their contact details, what they do for a living and some basic background info like if the live alone, which nationality they are and their rough age then I suspect you will be on an uphill struggle to satisfy the jury that these are friends. If the jury happens to be made up entirely of millennials then you might find it easier...

[xpertski]

The definition friends is impossible to define in court, probably why there is no case law! I don’t think there is a threshold of knowledge about that person as you could be new friends. The threshold is likely to be as basic as if you asked both people would they consider the other a friend. With regard to evidence to that, communications between the two in a friendly manner with non “transaction” requirements would suffice. Indicating it would be nice but not a requirement for contributions isn’t a transaction it’s an indication about a fair contribution/donation

[Pikey Dave]

Just my 2 penneth. As I’ve already mentioned in another thread, the peace, quiet & solitude are all attractions of boating to us. When we bought our boat, we did so in the expectation that we would bear the total costs of ownership. No one else would share the costs. I do take genuine friends out now & then for fishing trips, this usually involves overnight camping & a get together, I.e genuine bona-fide friends. The said friends always offer to make a contribution towards fuel/towing/launching etc. I always refuse to accept. I wonder how many of Bruce’s genuine “friends” would be asked back if they didn’t offer to pay. This would be a true test of Bruce’s claim not to be running commercially.

[xpertski]

PD - or rather a test of generosity rather than commerciality ...

Think I’ll bail out of this discussion though in case it takes a turn for the worse, offered my view [emoji23][emoji570] ...

[gpsguru]

A couple of years ago , a thread called 'boat fishing buddies' on WSF (World Seafishing Forums) was binned when a direct answer was obtained from the MCA as to the legality of the idea .............

I think Bruce is probably on the darker side of the grey line, having already crossed the white line.

Personnally I dont have any issues with it at all , but I can see why others would, especially the MCA whose job it is to protect the public in the marine environment.

On a differnet note ............ we are not doing Bruce any favours by discussing this in open public forum (essentailly 'social media') and maybe the admins should consider binning the thread.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by gpsguru

On a differnet note ............ we are not doing Bruce any favours by discussing this in open public forum.....

True, but Bruce started it.[emoji848]

[Fenlander]

Despite being "just" a sibber these days I've followed this and the previous associated thread with fascination as my earliest and in some ways best boating experiences were when dad and myself were able to join as crew or have sole use of some decent craft up to 50ft which belonged to friends of his. Because they were true friends there was never any upfront discussion of cost.... it was treated the same as if they asked our family round to dinner where you would not expect them to produce a list of the food ingredients and divvy that up.

On a shared trip with owner as skipper we might buy them the odd lunch but were never asked any fuel contribution etc. The offset was that was our services as crew/navigator enabling a trip they couldn't undertake solo or with inexperienced family.

When we had sole use of their boat we covered our own fuel costs, harbour dues and paid for any broken item or damage. No more than that... because the owners were "actual" friends. However the payback then might be offering our crewing services on a trip we'd not otherwise have wished to go on to enable the owner to do so... but no commitment.

I'm surprised at Bruces naivety for starting these threads in the first place and so encouraging responses from others and so digging an ever deeper pit.

In his previous thread back in May Bruce started off asking about " MCA asking questions about a the quasi commercial nature of how they find boat buddies to share fuel costs?"

Seems his main reason for finding boating buddies was to share (i.e. reduce) his costs and accepting there was a partly commercial element to it.

Further down the thread he says " I charge consumables (petrol and a notional amount for Optimax oil) and any mooring fees as visitors". Hmm you might appreciate a donation offered by a friend... you "charge" a customer.

Finally on that thread he says "calculated after – cash up back at the boatyard". To me that seems pretty close to paying for services received.

And now on this thread in his opening post Bruce is looking to expand his group of 10 boat buddies further.... not only "advertising" on here but asking for other places to offer the service/opportunity.

Like PD I'm a bit antisocial with my boating but even so if I wanted to offer a few shared trips out then between local friends and those I've got to "know" in forum discussion… by PMs and e-mail. I would not need to "advertise" on a thread.

In truth I'm with Willk on this but if that is too harsh then Bruce stop posting for buddies and stick to your actual friends and those in the close Lymington community you've referred to in the past. And stop seeking the fuel costs as a priority... you say you can't go the places you want solo so you need these buddies therefore in truth their help/company is enough.

Well that's the way I'd look at it and is why the MCA would never have me on their radar.

[Bern Hanreck]

I think a " true " friend is easy to define ! Some one who , despite you having a 100% well-found vessel and despite you acting 100% correctly in a situation arising on one of these trips totally outside of your control.........would not take you to court and try to obtain any damages whatsoever......

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Bern Hanreck

I think a " true " friend is easy to define ! Some one who , despite you having a 100% well-found vessel and despite you acting 100% correctly in a situation arising on one of these trips totally outside of your control.........would not take you to court and try to obtain any damages whatsoever......

...Not far off the Mark!
Still nice to know I have decent public liability cover all the same!

[brucehawsker]

I don’t want to hide in the darkness and I don’t want to do stuff which is unwise, inappropriate or even illegal. I am a naturally compliant person, and I think the MCA’s recent interactions with me would demonstrate.

Thus the comment:

“On a differnet note ............ we are not doing Bruce any favours by discussing this in open public forum.....”

really confuses me.

If we are having to do things to enable us to properly enjoy safe ribbing and our privately owned assets, and yet are having to keep these actions somehow ‘secret’ or ‘under the radar’, then something is wrong, I would suggest.

Ribnet is a public forum, although given the vast majority of forum members are likely to be rib owners, it is not a public forum where one would be likely to find rib buddies – members have their own ribs! But if we can’t discuss difficult subjects (such as who is a buddy or friend) in such an expert forum in the open, then have we not somehow moved to a police state?

Willk said “Once he {Bruce} sorted that out (by not publically advertising for rent-a-mates) he then used RIBnet to advertise for some rent-a-mates in the hope that the MCA would overlook it. IMHO, he's a chancer."

I am not seeking for boat buddies via ribnet. Not guilty. As I said above, ribnet is hardly likely to produce buddies as we pretty much all own our own ribs!

I did say in what was meant to be read as a separate comment “Anyone interested in joining us one off or more often?”. This comment was not aimed at finding new boat buddies. It was an open invitation to anyone who is a current active part of this forum who would like a day or half day out on my rib. And that is a genuine offer – I lack people who want to come out for a social blast….. And usually when I go out we have two or more spare seats.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advertising on any site, whether ribnet, crewseeker or even Facebook, for boat buddies (or in fact for anything else - I am retired!).

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I don’t want to hide in the darkness and I don’t want to do stuff which is unwise, inappropriate or even illegal. I am a naturally compliant person, and I think the MCA’s recent interactions with me would demonstrate.

Thus the comment:

“On a differnet note ............ we are not doing Bruce any favours by discussing this in open public forum.....”

really confuses me.

If we are having to do things to enable us to properly enjoy safe ribbing and our privately owned assets, and yet are having to keep these actions somehow ‘secret’ or ‘under the radar’, then something is wrong, I would suggest.

Ribnet is a public forum, although given the vast majority of forum members are likely to be rib owners, it is not a public forum where one would be likely to find rib buddies – members have their own ribs! But if we can’t discuss difficult subjects (such as who is a buddy or friend) in such an expert forum in the open, then have we not somehow moved to a police state?

Willk said “Once he {Bruce} sorted that out (by not publically advertising for rent-a-mates) he then used RIBnet to advertise for some rent-a-mates in the hope that the MCA would overlook it. IMHO, he's a chancer."

I am not seeking for boat buddies via ribnet. Not guilty. As I said above, ribnet is hardly likely to produce buddies as we pretty much all own our own ribs!

I did say in what was meant to be read as a separate comment “Anyone interested in joining us one off or more often?”. This comment was not aimed at finding new boat buddies. It was an open invitation to anyone who is a current active part of this forum who would like a day or half day out on my rib. And that is a genuine offer – I lack people who want to come out for a social blast….. And usually when I go out we have two or more spare seats.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not advertising on any site, whether ribnet, crewseeker or even Facebook, for boat buddies (or in fact for anything else - I am retired!).

Hopefully that's settled that then!
...Happy Boating!


...As to Wilk being a chancer!??... That MAY well deserve A WHOLE other Thread

[boristhebold]

whats the difference between the issues were talking about in this post and this

https://boatbuddys.co.uk/about

[willk]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I am looking to expand the group of 10 or so who come out in my rib on an irregular basis during the year......Any ideas of how to find new buddies? Web sites? Anyone interested in joining us one off or more often?

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I am not seeking for boat buddies via ribnet. Not guilty. As I said above, ribnet is hardly likely to produce buddies as we pretty much all own our own ribs!

I did say in what was meant to be read as a separate comment “Anyone interested in joining us one off or more often?”. This comment was not aimed at finding new boat buddies. It was an open invitation to anyone who is a current active part of this forum who would like a day or half day out on my rib.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction but not worry it's no skin off my nose.

[brucehawsker]

Originally Posted by willk

I'm not sure I understand the distinction but not worry it's no skin off my nose.

I am:

(1) asking this forum for ideas on how to legitimately expand my geographically local group of buddies who go out together on a regular basis on my boat;
(2) offering anyone who is active on this forum the opportunity to come out in my boat on the basis of being part of this forum - as is often offered on this forum and on the same basis

I am not seeking to increase membership of my local Lymington boat buddy group through the mechanism of advertising on this forum.

I hope that is clear, and thank you for the request for clarification, Willk.

[Xk59D]

have you considered just putting up a day you are going out and maybe other members will join you on their boats?

if you are not looking for splitting costs etc and genuine a boating buddy then that is perhaps another way forward that won't upset the MCA.

[brucehawsker]

Xk59D: Half the fun of going out, is for me going out together! As a recent convert to 4 stroke, we can now have good chats when cruising! We tend to be retired so we go out mid week leaving weekends free for grandchildren. I also appreciate having a couple of others on board to keep a lookout, tell me if something is wrong like an aft painter coming undone, share the helming and help coming alongside in windy conditions.

i don't honestly think advertising a mid-week cruising not WOT Solent trip will garner any interest from other boat owners on this site - but I may be wrong?

[Xk59D]

i'm not sure how much interest there will be, just putting it out there as perhaps an option.

i don't know anything about the MCA stuff but i figured if you are going out with other boats rather than other people then MCA won't give a toss about that.

if you want company on your boat then you will need to stick to your plan A i guess.

[brucehawsker]

I am keen to move away from specifics about me! But this thread is clearly raising useful questions. I want to obey the rules, but understanding what they are is to me far from straightforward.

Let's be clear, the issue here is not primarily about taking money from anyone, but finding friendships which can be enjoyed on the water in one's boat (and elsewhere). My wife is now more interested in grandchildren than my boat so wants to come out less than she did. I do not enjoy solo trips very much . I have an expensive wasting asset which is enormous fun and which I want to share with others - who may have experience or with no experience.

How can I achieve this without breaking 'rules'? Is it really as simple as not accepting contributions to costs incurred, as some suggest?

AndyJCox raises some interesting points.

“… I suggest that in order for anyone to find boating buddies without the need for coding and commercial certificates she/he needs to create a ‘friendship’ first. Be this a meeting in the pub for a chat the week before or messaging on here/any other medium to get to know each other at a basic level.”

“Ps. It does beg the question how all these crew seeker websites operate. Perhaps there is an assumption a friendship is made prior to setting sail.”

I would ask the following questions:

Q1: If I electronically meet someone on a website in response to an original post from me (the ‘advert’), and then meet for a coffee, and then invite them to come out in my boat – during which time many things are discussed and we get to know each other, but obviously experiencing a day out in a rib is central to some of the discussions, as is safety, type of experience, health etc – am I breaching the ‘rules’?

Q2: Does the answer to Q1 critically depend on the initial approach – i.e. the basis and content of the ‘advertising’?

Q3: Can we consider three possible texts for the initial ‘advert’ and ask whether (and why) they might fail what we all perceive to be the ‘rules’?

Text A: Opportunity for a trip on a small powerboat. We are a group of locals who regularly go out in small powerboat on day trips from Lymington and are looking for people who might be interested in joining our group. If you would like to reply we can fix up to meet for a chat and explore things further.

Text B. Farfetched is going out next Thursday. I am planning a day trip next week from Lymington in my small powerboat. This will be with a group of friends who do this regularly, but we often have spare places. If you would like to find out what is involved, please reply and we can fix up to meet for a chat over the next couple of days and explore things further.

Text C. Day trip to St Vaast. In three weeks time, weather permitting, a group of friends are going to St Vaast near Cherbourg in a small powerboat for lunch and an opportunity to shop before coming back to Lymington late that evening. We often go out in my boat together, but we have a couple of spare places for crew for this trip. If you would like to reply we can fix up to meet for a chat and explore things further.

Q4 Is any of this different if I stand up in a public meeting – such as community association or a church, and make the ‘advert’ as an announcement verbally to all present?

Q5 Is any of this different if I place the advert on a site such as https://www.boatbuddys.co.uk/ or https://www.crewbay.com/boats/recreational