Finding boating buddies

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I am keen to move away from specifics about me! But this thread is clearly raising useful questions. I want to obey the rules, but understanding what they are is to me far from straightforward.



Let's be clear, the issue here is not primarily about taking money from anyone, but finding friendships which can be enjoyed on the water in one's boat (and elsewhere). My wife is now more interested in grandchildren than my boat so wants to come out less than she did. I do not enjoy solo trips very much . I have an expensive wasting asset which is enormous fun and which I want to share with others - who may have experience or with no experience.



How can I achieve this without breaking 'rules'? Is it really as simple as not accepting contributions to costs incurred, as some suggest?



AndyJCox raises some interesting points.



“… I suggest that in order for anyone to find boating buddies without the need for coding and commercial certificates she/he needs to create a ‘friendship’ first. Be this a meeting in the pub for a chat the week before or messaging on here/any other medium to get to know each other at a basic level.”



“Ps. It does beg the question how all these crew seeker websites operate. Perhaps there is an assumption a friendship is made prior to setting sail.”



I would ask the following questions:



Q1: If I electronically meet someone on a website in response to an original post from me (the ‘advert’), and then meet for a coffee, and then invite them to come out in my boat – during which time many things are discussed and we get to know each other, but obviously experiencing a day out in a rib is central to some of the discussions, as is safety, type of experience, health etc – am I breaching the ‘rules’?



Q2: Does the answer to Q1 critically depend on the initial approach – i.e. the basis and content of the ‘advertising’?



Q3: Can we consider three possible texts for the initial ‘advert’ and ask whether (and why) they might fail what we all perceive to be the ‘rules’?

Text A: Opportunity for a trip on a small powerboat. We are a group of locals who regularly go out in small powerboat on day trips from Lymington and are looking for people who might be interested in joining our group. If you would like to reply we can fix up to meet for a chat and explore things further.



Text B. Farfetched is going out next Thursday. I am planning a day trip next week from Lymington in my small powerboat. This will be with a group of friends who do this regularly, but we often have spare places. If you would like to find out what is involved, please reply and we can fix up to meet for a chat over the next couple of days and explore things further.



Text C. Day trip to St Vaast. In three weeks time, weather permitting, a group of friends are going to St Vaast near Cherbourg in a small powerboat for lunch and an opportunity to shop before coming back to Lymington late that evening. We often go out in my boat together, but we have a couple of spare places for crew for this trip. If you would like to reply we can fix up to meet for a chat and explore things further.

Q4 Is any of this different if I stand up in a public meeting – such as community association or a church, and make the ‘advert’ as an announcement verbally to all present?



Q5 Is any of this different if I place the advert on a site such as https://www.boatbuddys.co.uk/ or https://www.crewbay.com/boats/recreational

Bruce, ask yourself this:-
Would any of your “friends” sue your ass if it went tits up? I’d like to think that my friends wouldn’t, but then again I choose wisely.
Are your “friends” expecting you to give them a nice day out in exchange for money? And if for some reason it didn’t happen due to, weather/engine etc. would they still happily stump up for their share of the costs involved in an aborted trip? I.e. if you don’t deliver, do they still pay?
Do you see your “friends” other than at the dockside? Do you go around to theirs for a drink or a meal on a non boating day, do you have other shared interests? Do you holiday together?
You need to ask yourself these questions, because if it does go horribly wrong, the next person to ask may be the barrister for the prosecution. Could you stand up in court & robustly defend the way you operate? If not, then for your own protection you need to adjust your business model approach.

[willk]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

How can I achieve this without breaking 'rules'? Is it really as simple as not accepting contributions to costs incurred, as some suggest?

For my part, accepting money meant being Coded. I suppose I could have searched for loopholes but decided to bite the bullet instead. It costs me around three grand a year to do this (less in the UK) and I have to paddle hard to keep up. There are a few non-coded boats locally who "take mates out fishing for fuel money" and I've seen how they roll. No serviced lifejackets, no firefighting equipment, no training, no first aid, no flares, no liferaft, no insurance, no f##ks given. They charge around 65% of my fee and I "get" why they do it, but there is no comparison....

[Poly]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I want to obey the rules, but understanding what they are is to me far from straightforward.

Bruce I don’t really believe that. Pretty much everyone else knows what “for the pleasure of the owner and their friends and family” and “not receive any money other than a contribution to direct costs of the voyage” means.

The concept of advertising for “friends” is very odd to me. If you are actually looking for crew, to help you launch, tie up, keep a look out, etc and actually be involved in sailing the vessel that is rather different from what you have been “advertising”. You can remove much of the issue just by removing the payment issue. If it’s about getting out on the asset more with like minded people then treat it as such, rather than a fuel subsidy. Who you want to go with will probably shift then from people with money to people with shared interests! I think writing adverts is very odd - I’d set up a WhatsApp group amongst the people who regularly join you and encourage them to invite their own friends to join the group and join a trip.

If it is about the asset then perhaps shared ownership would be a better option?

If it is about the running costs - would forming a “club” amongst the genuine friends who use it regularly be a better option?

As for midweek cruises - I wouldn’t rule out other people here being interested. Not everyone works M-F 9-5 and they may well fancy a spin on quieter waters but have no one to join. You’re also not the only old duffer/lucky bugger on here who is retired.

[beamishken]

Wouldnt it be easier to go down the commercial route? Do the training (which is always usefull) and look at getting the boat coded. Yes its expence and agro but you can hire some of the safety gear and you'd probably enjoy the training.
Once done you could legitimately offer a niche service to older people who may prefer a more sedate pace. You could set a cost to recoup your set up costs and will likely become friends with some of your clients. You could then revert to an expenses only arrangement as clients become friends.
If your group starts to diminish you could quite legaly advertise again to add to the group.
Even having friends onboard you would have the reassurance of having correct insurance cover and equipment
Maybe not exactly what you want but im sure you could cover the setup costs or even make a little pocket money

[Bern Hanreck]

Bruce , I really can empathise with your situation as I have been through something similar ( and in the end I decided I would sell my boat until my situation changed ) .

Apologies if it has already been covered but does your insurance company know in full your " modus operandi " ? Do you have it in writing ( each year ) that they are happy for you to continue to operate this way ? Genuinely not trying to be negative or nosey !

[jwalker]

Go make friends somewhere else, perhaps adult learning classes or local authority adult education, go make some pottery or join a singing group. Then take your pals for a boating picnic. Job done.

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Go make friends somewhere else, perhaps adult learning classes or local authority adult education, go make some pottery or join a singing group. Then take your pals for a boating picnic. Job done.

+1

Getting the boat coded is a PITA and surveyors use you as a money cow with countless chargeable visits finding one fault at a time with another excuse to visit again and again. The medical is pricey and very strict. The RYA training is fun and well worth doing anyway, but again pricey (someone else was lifting the tab for mine ). By the time you pay for all that it'll have cost you more than you're likely to reap in "fuel cost donations"

[Xk59D]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Go make friends somewhere else, perhaps adult learning classes or local authority adult education, go make some pottery or join a singing group. Then take your pals for a boating picnic. Job done.

If I could I would greenie this post.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

+1

Getting the boat coded is a PITA and surveyors use you as a money cow with countless chargeable visits finding one fault at a time with another excuse to visit again and again. The medical is pricey and very strict. The RYA training is fun and well worth doing anyway, but again pricey (someone else was lifting the tab for mine ). By the time you pay for all that it'll have cost you more than you're likely to reap in "fuel cost donations"

2 of my pals had a hard boat coded to cat 3 recently and it wasnt realy a big deal, a good percentage of the safety kit was stuff most well equipped boats would carry anyway with a few exceptions, the liferaft is the most expensive item but they can be hired.
For the ops purpose he may not want to code to cat 3 which would make life easier.
My suggestion was to charge a commercial rate to newcomers to recoup his investment.Once his initial expenditure had been covered he could revert to charging on a cost only basis if he desired & by which time several of his clients will likely have become friends.
The big bonus of being 'legit' is he can carry proper liability insurance and sleep well in the knowledge that one of his new 'friends' isnt going to take him to the cleaners for the dodgy back he got while out for a jolly.
He may also make a little money out of the venture

[brucehawsker]

Went out today with an experienced Ribnetter! Thx Paul.

Incidentally, it was a wonderful autumn day. We had a fantastic time. See photo of Bosham. Hard to believe it is 19th October....

Aim to be going out most weeks for rest of year on variable days of the week. If anyone who has been looking at this thread or contributing to it wants a trip out in Farfetched with her new engine, please PM me. And..... I won't be charging for fuel etc !!!


Thank you all for your input and helpful suggestions.

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by beamishken

2 of my pals had a hard boat coded to cat 3 recently and it wasnt realy a big deal, a good percentage of the safety kit was stuff most well equipped boats would carry anyway with a few exceptions, the liferaft is the most expensive item but they can be hired.
For the ops purpose he may not want to code to cat 3 which would make life easier.
My suggestion was to charge a commercial rate to newcomers to recoup his investment.Once his initial expenditure had been covered he could revert to charging on a cost only basis if he desired & by which time several of his clients will likely have become friends.
The big bonus of being 'legit' is he can carry proper liability insurance and sleep well in the knowledge that one of his new 'friends' isnt going to take him to the cleaners for the dodgy back he got while out for a jolly.
He may also make a little money out of the venture

I've been through this and as you say you might have most of the safety kit but chances are it's not going to be "exactly" what they want.
eg. Both anchors have to be the prescribed weight with the prescribed chain gauge and length. Both fire extinguishers have to be the prescribed type and weight, the flare and first aid kits have to be Solas approved, you have to have a secondary means of steering the boat, you need two lifebuoys, documented safety procedures, operating procedures, risk assessments, your paper charts have to have all up to date corrections applied, the boat needs a stability check and of course...mustn't forget the bucket & survey

Moving onto the skipper, (to make this legit) he's probably going to need to get PB2 and then a commercially endorsed Advanced PB cert. and that'll require the night time practical test. RYA first aid cert, RYA Sea survival cert, VHF operators cert, PPR exam and a medical certificate. By the way, if you're "colour blind" you have to go to an MCA centre (my nearest was a 260ml round trip) to prove it with a "lantern test" ???

To put some "ball-park" figures on this lot.

Surveyor's fees..........................just short of £1,000 (actual invoice)
Raft rental............................................ .........£380 (actual invoice)
PB2............................................... ...............£250
Advanced Powerboat.......................................£3 00
Sea survival.......................................... .........£120
First aid............................................... ..........£100
PPR Exam.............................................. ..........£30
Medical........................................... ...............£130 (actual invoice)
Commercial endorsement fee.............................£35
Secondary means of steering.............................£ ??

(The insurance quote was surprisingly similar to that for normal leisure use)

However, we're comfortably hitting the wrong side of two grand and that's probably more than his entire annual fuel cost. So to make this work he'd have to charge a proper commercial rate and probably find the ten"friends" he already has aren't so keen anymore and he'd just end up out of pocket

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

I've been through this and as you say you might have most of the safety kit but chances are it's not going to be "exactly" what they want.
eg. Both anchors have to be the prescribed weight with the prescribed chain gauge and length. Both fire extinguishers have to be the prescribed type and weight, the flare and first aid kits have to be Solas approved, you have to have a secondary means of steering the boat, you need two lifebuoys, documented safety procedures, operating procedures, risk assessments, your paper charts have to have all up to date corrections applied, the boat needs a stability check and of course...mustn't forget the bucket & survey

Moving onto the skipper, (to make this legit) he's probably going to need to get PB2 and then a commercially endorsed Advanced PB cert. and that'll require the night time practical test. RYA first aid cert, RYA Sea survival cert, VHF operators cert, PPR exam and a medical certificate. By the way, if you're "colour blind" you have to go to an MCA centre (my nearest was a 260ml round trip) to prove it with a "lantern test" ???

To put some "ball-park" figures on this lot.

Surveyor's fees..........................just short of £1,000 (actual invoice)
Raft rental............................................ .........£380 (actual invoice)
PB2............................................... ...............£250
Advanced Powerboat.......................................£3 00
Sea survival.......................................... .........£120
First aid............................................... ..........£100
PPR Exam.............................................. ..........£30
Medical........................................... ...............£130 (actual invoice)
Commercial endorsement fee.............................£35
Secondary means of steering.............................£ ??

(The insurance quote was surprisingly similar to that for normal leisure use)

However, we're comfortably hitting the wrong side of two grand and that's probably more than his entire annual fuel cost. So to make this work he'd have to charge a proper commercial rate and probably find the ten"friends" he already has aren't so keen anymore and he'd just end up out of pocket

Our ideas of a huge expence differ somewhat, lets say for argument sake he spends 2.5k getting his outfit legit thats possibly 1/3rd of the annual running costs of a 6.5m boat on the south coast?
He doesnt need to charge a fortune or do multiple trips per week to recoup his costs
If he charged 4 new customers £25 over his fuel costs for a trip then in 25 trips he has his money back.

In my opinion as a cost to stay within the law and not need to look over his shoulder or worry about being sued its a reasonable cost exercise.

He could easily recoup his expences in 1 leisurely season then hes totaly legal and free to charge his new 'mates' their share of the fuel cost

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Our ideas of a huge expence differ somewhat, lets say for argument sake he spends 2.5k getting his outfit legit thats possibly 1/3rd of the annual running costs of a 6.5m boat on the south coast?
He doesnt need to charge a fortune or do multiple trips per week to recoup his costs
If he charged 4 new customers £25 over his fuel costs for a trip then in 25 trips he has his money back.

In my opinion as a cost to stay within the law and not need to look over his shoulder or worry about being sued its a reasonable cost exercise.

He could easily recoup his expences in 1 leisurely season then hes totaly legal and free to charge his new 'mates' their share of the fuel cost

Also, if something did go wrong & Bruce got sued by one of his mates & it went to court. If he was found to be operating illegally, his non-commercial insurance wouldn’t pay out & he would become personally liable. The fact that Bruce has already had a warning shot across his bow from the MCA, would be a gift from heaven for his insurance company. The £2.5-3k for coding could soon start to look like a bargain.

[GuyC]

My personal opinion and that is what forums are about is that he is running a business and if you choose to live by the sword, you also choose to die by the sword. My boat is purely pleasure so on one hand it really doesn't affect me however I do feel sorry for those who are trying to stay with the confines of the 'law'.

The parallels to the yachting crewing lists is interesting and from my sailing days I knew of owners who would advertise for crew on a weekly basis and expect a contribution to the days sailing - race fees, food, wear and tear on sails. Was it run as a business? Would they have been able to continue if they hadn't charged for sailing? Maybe twenty years ago it was all a bit more innocent.

I think by sailing close to the wind, it runs the risk of spoiling it for other people should the authorities choose to clamp down on this type of activity. Andre advertised for people to join him on a Solent cruise a short time ago and I'm sure there are a few places on the Nacho run that get filled by people with similar interests if not friends. It would be a shame if that type of activity was stopped due to some taking advantage of the situation.

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Also, if something did go wrong & Bruce got sued by one of his mates & it went to court. If he was found to be operating illegally, his non-commercial insurance wouldn’t pay out & he would become personally liable. The fact that Bruce has already had a warning shot across his bow from the MCA, would be a gift from heaven for his insurance company. The £2.5-3k for coding could soon start to look like a bargain.

But he's still got to get through all the RYA training, the PPR exam, the APB practical assessment conducted entirely in the dark, (I get the impression from his other posts and some of the technical questions he's asked that he's not that experienced.....might be doing him a disservice.), a very stringent medical exam. He has to be fit enough to do the "sea survival" training and his boat has to be "Code-able". He's got a 20" motor on a transom with no well so I'm guessing there's going to be freeboard issues with that.

I'm not advocating he should keep doing what he's doing but if £2.5k is just beer money to him (i'ts about 3/4 of my annual costs and that's based on 150hrs a year.) then why not just pick up the tab for the fuel himself so there's no argument about it being a commercial venture.

It sounds as though he's struggling with numbers already so bumping up the price is not going to help with this.

[Brian]

Strewth, we really are making a meal out of this aren't we?
I have never charged, accepted or expected any payment for taking folks out on my boat.
Indeed I have refused payment/contribution to fuel.
All boat costs in my view are for the account of the boat owner.
If you can't take a few mates out for a runaround, which you are going to do anyway!! without expecting payment, then boo-hoo to you.
Sure if we go for a few beers afterwards then accepting a drink is only fair.

[jambo]

Originally Posted by Brian

Strewth, we really are making a meal out of this aren't we?

I have never charged, accepted or expected any payment for taking folks out on my boat.

Indeed I have refused payment/contribution to fuel.

All boat costs in my view are for the account of the boat owner.

If you can't take a few mates out for a runaround, which you are going to do anyway!! without expecting payment, then boo-hoo to you.

Sure if we go for a few beers afterwards then accepting a drink is only fair.

Got to agree with you 100% Brian[emoji106]

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Brian

Strewth, we really are making a meal out of this aren't we?
I have never charged, accepted or expected any payment for taking folks out on my boat.
Indeed I have refused payment/contribution to fuel.
All boat costs in my view are for the account of the boat owner.
If you can't take a few mates out for a runaround, which you are going to do anyway!! without expecting payment, then boo-hoo to you.
Sure if we go for a few beers afterwards then accepting a drink is only fair.

+1

I've always refused any fuel contribution......hell I was going to burn that petrol whether they were there or not anyway.

A business venture is a completely different thing.

[Simonh66]

Originally Posted by GuyC

My personal opinion and that is what forums are about is that he is running a business and if you choose to live by the sword, you also choose to die by the sword. My boat is purely pleasure so on one hand it really doesn't affect me however I do feel sorry for those who are trying to stay with the confines of the 'law'.

The parallels to the yachting crewing lists is interesting and from my sailing days I knew of owners who would advertise for crew on a weekly basis and expect a contribution to the days sailing - race fees, food, wear and tear on sails. Was it run as a business? Would they have been able to continue if they hadn't charged for sailing? Maybe twenty years ago it was all a bit more innocent.

I think by sailing close to the wind, it runs the risk of spoiling it for other people should the authorities choose to clamp down on this type of activity. Andre advertised for people to join him on a Solent cruise a short time ago and I'm sure there are a few places on the Nacho run that get filled by people with similar interests if not friends. It would be a shame if that type of activity was stopped due to some taking advantage of the situation.

I was on Andres last trip. It was a great day with great people & not one penny was exchanged, infact he wouldn’t even let us buy his lunch!

I wouldn’t hesitate in joining him on “Grey Mist” again

[ribber]

My far too simplistic and naive opinion in what is obviously a legal minefield. By virtue of me being a willing member of this forum I assumed we all shared a common interest.....boating in some way or other, be it large or small, experienced or not. If I then choose to join someone from this forum on their boat under whatever their terms, it is down to me to accept total responsibility for myself....

I too had a totally random day out with Andre and so glad I did. Met up with like minded boater's and hope to meet up again in our own boats for another jolly on the Solent.

God life has become so complicated....