Flares

[PeterM]

Exactly..this is in addition to plb and dsc.

In reality we have a member who bobbed about for a few hours on the water having set off a plb.....and from what I can tell didn't have a flare on him in the water...but still got picked up..just maybe quicker with a flare/suitable laser device.

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by chris.moody

Thanks for the info SPR. Why do you carry red and green laser flares? What are the pros and con's of each? Do i need both or just one? Do the emergency services in the UK recognise a green laser as a distress / this is where I am marker.

Will a laser flare be effective in daylight hours.

Sorry about all the questions.

--
Tigga - Avon SR4 Rescue with 40hp Yamaha 2 stroke

From what I remember Green flares are or were used to signal that all is well or to cancel a distress ,
Seem to remember aircraft doing a sea search up to a few years ago would drop a green flare at the end of each search leg .

[gennaro]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

From what I remember Green flares are or were used to signal that all is well or to cancel a distress ,
Seem to remember aircraft doing a sea search up to a few years ago would drop a green flare at the end of each search leg .

From the website the green ones have a range of 30 miles at night as opposed to 20 miles for the red ones.

[MustRib]

I am slightly sceptical about these from MOB perspective. In the water - with a 3 foot or bigger swell, I am not sure I am holding out any fingers or arms to aim with...
As with all visual devices - they only work when someone is around to see them. At night time / cloudy overcast conditions - they are probably much more effective, and you can project the "Bat" signal onto a cloud. Do they have a lens/gobo that screws on the end and will project SOS on to a cloud or sail?
Worth having on your key ring? Not if your keys are still in your boat and your not.
I really would be interested in a demo sometime though.

Originally Posted by PeterM

Exactly..this is in addition to plb and dsc.

In reality we have a member who bobbed about for a few hours on the water having set off a plb.....and from what I can tell didn't have a flare on him in the water...but still got picked up..just maybe quicker with a flare/suitable laser device.

[SPR]

Originally Posted by MustRib

Worth having on your key ring? Not if your keys are still in your boat and your not.

The it is my car keys ! I have my boat one is in the free pouch I am giving to RIBnetters with the Flare.

S.

[Stippolyte]

when my last set of mini flares expired the local fire station very kindly disposed of them.

on a slight deviation, does anyone have / had / used a skystreme radar kite ? Picked a couple up for a fiver at a boat jumble years ago. Thankfully never been used but seem a good idea. karl

[DGR]

I think it's one of those bits of kit that would be really useful to have if you know someone is coming to get you - but what about the minority (?!) that go out with no anchor, no VHF, no flares, no common sense, but think that a 'laser flare' and a mobile phone will do?

I've been called out to a jet-skier who ran out of fuel and was more than 30 miles from where he thought he was - Coastguard teams and the RAF couldn't find him from the initial contact - but he was only half a mile off the beach, and if he'd fired a flare, then one of the people who were waving back at him (beggars belief, but anyway) might have called it in. If he'd been shining a laser at them, what would they have done? Would they have noticed, or just carried on waving?

Anyway, almost 2 hours after the intial call (and a refuel), the RAF found him, and we went to collect him.......

[SPR]

Originally Posted by Stippolyte

when my last set of mini flares expired the local fire station very kindly disposed of them.

on a slight deviation, does anyone have / had / used a skystreme radar kite ? Picked a couple up for a fiver at a boat jumble years ago. Thankfully never been used but seem a good idea. karl

yes - I got one but couldn't get it to fly! I was going to resell them - but I am not...

S.

[miccheck1516]

as noted above folks, dont neglect the fact that these laser flares basically mean nothing in the world of GMDSS and Distress alerting.

In the absence of any officially GMDSS recognised method of distress alerting, the coastguard, getting a call from a member of the public saying 'someone is shining a laser through the window of my waterfront home' is unlikely to task SAR units with any urgency, if at all.

A (genuine) red flare report on the other hand, is distinct, says 'i need immediate assistance,' and WILL result in broadcast action should the coastguard be notified.


SPR, what are you doing (if anything?) to get these things officially recognised as a means of Distress alert?

I see you noted something about the MOD being 'OK' with the use of these things because the laser is spread? and having been issued with a 'safety certificate?' it all sound a bit wishy washy to me sorry.....

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by MustRib

I am slightly sceptical about these from MOB perspective. In the water - with a 3 foot or bigger swell, I am not sure I am holding out any fingers or arms to aim with...
As with all visual devices - they only work when someone is around to see them. At night time / cloudy overcast conditions - they are probably much more effective, and you can project the "Bat" signal onto a cloud. Do they have a lens/gobo that screws on the end and will project SOS on to a cloud or sail?
Worth having on your key ring? Not if your keys are still in your boat and your not.
I really would be interested in a demo sometime though.

Erm... did you patentthat before posting it?
I get the impression you were fished out pretty quick once the chopper was on scene which with an EPIRB passing your location makes perfect sense. Had you DSC'd or verbal'd your possition and then lost contact then you had drifted a fair bit by the time they got to you. Being able to flash your possition would presumably be handy.

Equally for the guys who are wanting to be rescued from water with 10 other ribs near by that the chopper needs to work out which one you are then flashing them probably helps.

I can also see for divers if its waterproof enough then if you surface away from your dive boat you can signal them or if it all goes wrong signal the search vessels.

Plenty of people wear Black Shaddows on here - so is difficult to see if you are in the water.

Would rather have a laser in my pocket than an explosive / firearm

[SPR]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

SPR, what are you doing (if anything?) to get these things officially recognised as a means of Distress alert?

I see you noted something about the MOD being 'OK' with the use of these things because the laser is spread? and having been issued with a 'safety certificate?' it all sound a bit wishy washy to me sorry.....

The recent MCA Notice http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/min_464_final_version.pdf

This Notice states they will take the lead from the current research by USA

The Manufacturer is working with US Coastguard to get these officially approved as stated above too, after all they are an Alaskain Company.

As to GMDSS etc, I have not once stated that these are replacements for Pyros. but also these are not Primary means of Distress

S.

[MustRib]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Erm... did you patent that before posting it?

Am always ready to give away the good ideas

[Poly]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

as noted above folks, dont neglect the fact that these laser flares basically mean nothing in the world of GMDSS and Distress alerting.

I think you are placing a lot of emphasis on a document rather than the practical realities of small vessel boating!

In the absence of any officially GMDSS recognised method of distress alerting, the coastguard, getting a call from a member of the public saying 'someone is shining a laser through the window of my waterfront home' is unlikely to task SAR units with any urgency, if at all.

A (genuine) red flare report on the other hand, is distinct, says 'i need immediate assistance,' and WILL result in broadcast action should the coastguard be notified.

I think you are probably wrong. I've seen reports of lifeboats launched to investigate all sorts of "lights at sea". I also think you've put a lot of expectation on the member of the public to know what a handheld flare actually looks like, and to be able to identify a laser.

Personally I prefer the concept of the odeo "flare" but not its price! I also think most members of the public would expect flares to be "launched" rather than handheld.

[SPR]

Poly,

If I wanted a range if 3 n miles I would buy a led lifejacket light! ( http://www.aquaspec.com/AQ40S )


have you seen the size of 0deo?...they are big..

I could supply both models, but chose not too - since Greatland has Range & Size.

S.

[AJ.]

SPR, both PeterM and I are seriously interested in your laser flares. I think you have summed up the use well. If I was to go overboard on my own. I have a dsc handheld, a plb and think the laser flare is a great way of getting local attention or awareness for oncoming traffic and helping the SAR pin pointing my location. You don't need to worry about expiry dates, duff pyro flares and the physical dangers that can occur from setting them off and the laser flares you can change the batteries yourself and test it maybe on the floor to see that it is working.

I have seen the odeo one it is really bulky and there is a video on YouTube where it was used in the dark and the mock rescuers new the direction the odeo flare was being used so specifically looking in the right direction and they didn't see it until they were less than 3 miles away compared to up to 30 miles in the right conditions for the laser flare SPR is selling.

[Boatnomad]

Originally Posted by AJ.

SPR,I think you have summed up the use well. If I was to go overboard on my own. I have a dsc handheld, a plb and think the laser flare is a great way of getting local attention or awareness for oncoming traffic and helping the SAR pin pointing my location. You don't need to worry about expiry dates, duff pyro flares and the physical dangers that can occur from setting them off and the laser flares you can change the batteries yourself and test it maybe on the floor to see that it is working.

Have to agree.Laser flares lend themselves well with the practical realities of a small vessel.

[PeterM]

Update...

Had play with the odeo laser flare at boat show ( I'll post on my show feelings seperately) . It felt what can I say ' plasticy' . Probably OK to keep on a boat, but too big for keeping on your person.

SPR very kindly offered to send a greatland flare to me to play with for nothing - however I am sure they are the way forward for me so I have ordered today.

On a small boat for poeple who have a DSC radio/ PLB I can't believe carrying volatile chemicals is the right way to go when technology gives us ' safer' options. I also feel much happier letting anyone on my boat and telling them to use a laser flare with no worries if needed - not something I'd let people do with a pryo flare at all. The use of a laser flare for me me akin to advising passengers to hit the DSC button if the situation arrises - foolproof and only ever leading to a better outcome.

Given the cost of the laser devices I can add one each year or so to the boat so that in time every lifejacket I have will have one fitted - this for the same cost of replacing pyro flares every few years.

Pete

[kerny]

I agree with everthing you have said Pete. Lasers are the way forward for me too.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by kerny

I agree with everthing you have said Pete. Lasers are the way forward for me too.

I'm just waiting for Christmas

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Poly

I think you are placing a lot of emphasis on a document rather than the practical realities of small vessel boating!
I think you are probably wrong. I've seen reports of lifeboats launched to investigate all sorts of "lights at sea". I also think you've put a lot of expectation on the member of the public to know what a handheld flare actually looks like, and to be able to identify a laser.

Personally I prefer the concept of the odeo "flare" but not its price! I also think most members of the public would expect flares to be "launched" rather than handheld.

You might have seen reports of pigs flying, but I can assure you, with the move to 'Future Coastguard' sending a lifeboat out to 'investigate lights at sea' is not going to happen on a regular basis, unless these things aqquire some sort of proper recognition. I don't dispute that once a proper distress notification has been sent, these may assist in locating a casualty visually, but the point remains they are simply not GMDSS (or IMO, whatever) complaint...

There are supposed to be lights at sea, they are for navigation, it's not uncommon for members of the public to call up and report lights at sea when a new buoy has been established within view of their lounge, it's not practical to send lifeboats out to every one of these calls.

If you've ever called in a flare report you'll be aware the Coastguard will question the caller, in an effort to establish if what they have seen is indeed a red flare, if it can't be ascertained then it's much more likely that the coastguard will task a local coastguard rescue team rather than a lifeboat. Then someone can literally stand beside the first informant and see what they are trying to describe. Of course, in the mean time broadcast action might be taken to see if any vessel in the area have seen anything, and local military firing ranges may be called to check if they are active.

it's not practical to send a lifeboat out while a first informant stands on the shore and says 'left a bit, right a bit, no your too close in now it was further out'

I suppose the MCA document says it better than i've tried to

"None of the EVDS on the market that we are aware of, currently meet the light
intensity required by the IMO Life Saving Appliance Code and as such do not conform to the Directive. This means that they cannot be carried as a substitute for pyrotechnic flares on vessels to which mandatory carriage applies.

Where carriage of flares is non–mandatory and due to the possibility that EVDS may not be recognised internationally as a distress signal, the MCA advises that EVDS, for the time being, should not be carried as a substitute for conventional pyrotechnic flares. However, for all pleasure vessels, seagoing commercial vessels, and most non–seagoing commercial vessels EVDS may be carried and used as a locating device, though their limitations should be
recognised and all parties involved made aware of the type of signal being generated"

are there lots of reports of people getting hurt using pyros on boats? it's not something I hear alot of.....