Flares

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

are there lots of reports of people getting hurt using pyros on boats? it's not something I hear alot of.....

thats the thing ...would you be happy if I stood on your boat and set one off as a demo? I guess not ...

Or one of your guests did ? I guess not ....

or you did ? - maybe not ....

The RISK of hurt/ injury is what is is being removed by a laser flare - which combined with DSC/ PLB devices and the ability to allow anyone to safely operate it - with no gloves/ safety glasses etc and no consideration of buring metal/ chemicals at very high temps dropping into a boat.

Combine the above with an 'event time' of hours compared to seconds for pyros and the fact that non commercial/ smaller boats aren't required by law to carry anything does , in my opinion mean they are way forward.

Lifeboats have been launched to sightings of red flares around here - as you say confirmed sightings - but if those boats setting off the flare had sent a DSC alert/ PLB activation I'd put a good bet on a lifeboat launch to that as well ( after suitable qualification) .

Its not a laser flare or nothing situation . Its laser flare + DSC / PLB .

If you're coded/ large - non of the above matters - you have to have pyros ( and by virtue someone who knows how to set them off etc) .

[miccheck1516]

Well i've let off red hand flares before, and yeah, to be honest I wouldn't mind if you stood on my boat and let one off, you sound so scared of them I reckon you'd dunk it in the water and extinguish it before it even got going! lol

joking aside, ok, I realise there is a risk, and you want to eliminate all such risk, but can anyone actually quantify what the risk is?

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Well i've let off red hand flares before, and yeah, to be honest I wouldn't mind if you stood on my boat and let one off, you sound so scared of them I reckon you'd dunk it in the water and extinguish it before it even got going! lol

joking aside, ok, I realise there is a risk, and you want to eliminate all such risk, but can anyone actually quantify what the risk is?

No - I cant quantify it - but I can guarantee you its more than with a laser flare.

I'm pretty sure a flare continues to burn under water......

[Pikey Dave]

Speaking as someone who was badly burned when a red parachute flare exploded in the tube as I set it off, I am very interested in the potential of laser "devices". My primary means of raising the alarm would be DSC/PLB/VHF. If that lot doesn't work, then the chances of someone seeing & responding to a 45sec flare are slim. I then see the laser as a means of giving the cavalry something to home in on. We need to look at it as a whole system which when combined is much more robust(IMO) than a firework, which is un-testable & transient. The whole bit about SOLAS approval is a red herring, what works, works. IMHO

[Poly]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

but the point remains they are simply not GMDSS (or IMO, whatever) complaint...

So if I dial 999 on the way home tonight and tell the Coastie I can see a red flare, how does the coastie know that what I can see is an official GMSDD/SOLAS/IMO compliant flare and not something that either (i) I have mistaken for a flare OR (ii) was launched to indicate a distress but isn't officially stamped? simple he can't other than using common sense / intuition / experience. Sometimes that will work other time they will be launching a boat to investigate.

e.g. Torch flashing - actually on the shore line:
Kinghorn Lifeboat Station: The Interactive Rescue Chart

A chinese lantern and a camera flash in separate incidents!
Red alert for RNLI Kinghorn lifeboat

It appears even "expert observers" can mix up meteors / aircraft with flares:
http://www.seahouseslifeboat.org.uk/...ed%20Flare.pdf

If you've ever called in a flare report you'll be aware the Coastguard will question the caller, in an effort to establish if what they have seen is indeed a red flare, if it can't be ascertained then it's much more likely that the coastguard will task a local coastguard rescue team rather than a lifeboat. Then someone can literally stand beside the first informant and see what they are trying to describe. Of course, in the mean time broadcast action might be taken to see if any vessel in the area have seen anything, and local military firing ranges may be called to check if they are active.

this appears to be an argument why the local CG volunteers should be aware of (and perhaps even supportive of) devices that give an effect long enough for them to see rather than the 60s or so a flare lasts.

Do you suggest that people should take a torch with them to sea? Do you think that if they were in distress that flashing a torch might be a good way to (i) Attract attention (ii) Assist the rescue services to locate your exact locations?

[chris.moody]

I am looking forward to seeing PeterM rescue laser , and subject to having a look at his one will no doubt be ordering my own from SPR. I am tempted to buy the larger red one that takes the AA batteries as I have a couple of sets of those rechargeable AA's that have a very long shelf life in my grab bag (for the handheld GPS and the backup VHF).

I wonder why the green one is much more expensive and is it worth the additional cost.

[SPR]

Originally Posted by chris.moody

I am looking forward to seeing PeterM rescue laser , and subject to having a look at his one will no doubt be ordering my own from SPR. I am tempted to buy the larger red one that takes the AA batteries as I have a couple of sets of those rechargeable AA's that have a very long shelf life in my grab bag (for the handheld GPS and the backup VHF).

I wonder why the green one is much more expensive and is it worth the additional cost.

the green on is more expensive to manufacturer - is noticeable brighter because eye sees green better. it was £249 when I first sold it!

Most of military sales are Green...

S.

[PeterM]

Thanks to SPR marine who sent me my red laser flare today( well packed, sent next day etc ) .

First impressions are its a simple product in simple packaging not trying to pretend its something its not.

First thing that struck me was the size - it really is compact ! My feeling is that can be a good and bad thing - small enough to be on me all the time , but maybe too small to ‘find easily’ if needed in the water.

Opened her up and SPR had put the battery in for me so no worries there - but simple enough to replace when needed - much like a torch battery replacement - so a plus there compared to having to drive to the RNLI to dispose of pyro flares - you could even recycle the battery in the Greatland product !

One end has a rubber cap - to make simple to identify the business end and protect the lens I guess. The other end a key ring/lanyard attachment - one to use for sure to ensure its not dropped over the side never to be seen again. ( note to self - get some decent lanyards for radio/ PLB / laser flare! ) I’m surprised Greatland don’t include one - but then again you don’t have lanyard on personal flares either)

Pouch I’d suggest is a must for the smaller flare - to ensure its secure and on your person - however the unit is small enough to go in the small pockets on the Black shadow.

Instructions are clear - just simply twist the base and its on ! Its fool proof ..I’d let anyone play with it, carry it and use it with no hesitation - you could tell kids its like a torch to wave towards rescuers and they’d know how to use it ( unlike a pyro flare) .

The vertical line of light is clearly visible on walls etc so you can see which way it runs , but in use this could be harder , but I don’t see as an issue as an up & down and a side to side wave would solve any orientation problems.

The odeo flare dummy I played with last week was pretty bulky ( to bulky to have your person) and seemed to have the 'flash towards rescuers' built in by way of flickerling the light - much like trying to imitate the flicker of a pyro flare.

Overall I’m very pleased, my last lot of pryo flares expire in December - at which point I’ll be getting another larger version .

I feel much happier haveing this on me/ the boat than pyros and I can safely give it to anyone to use knowing even if they turn it on by accident it wont cause injury.

If anyone wants to have a look / touch/ feel in the Bournemouth Poole area - just drop me a PM.

[SPR]

I use parachute cord for my radio & flares with carbiner.

A small 15mm keyring attrached to the icom hole and one to the flare works best.

I am trying to source these in bulk! to give away, the rings that is.

S.

[HughN]

Originally Posted by PeterM

If anyone wants to have a look / touch/ feel in the Bournemouth Poole area - just drop me a PM.

Is the "Bournemouth Poole area" a euphamism with which I had not previously been acquainted?

[Siochair]

Originally Posted by PeterM

The other end a key ring/lanyard attachment - one to use for sure to ensure its not dropped over the side never to be seen again. ( note to self - get some decent lanyards for radio/ PLB / laser flare! ) I’m surprised Greatland don’t include one - but then again you don’t have lanyard on personal flares either)

What about this? BLACK RECOIL RETRACTABLE KEY CHAIN RING WITH BELT CLIP: Amazon.co.uk: Office Products It even matches the suit...

[JamesF]

Handy things — I kept my safety knife on one (a Draper one, I think). It only lasted a season, though. I forget which part failed, but it was rust that killed it.

[Copinsay]

Hi All

Not sure if I've missed something here, and I've not used a laser flare (but looked at the boat show) but while they for sure they can do *some* of what a smoke flare does, I can't see how they would have the height advantage a parachute flare does... (unless there's a parachute laser).

In other words, the light source will be no higher than you are on the boat, so of limited use if you are, eg, close to a cliff or behind a low island where VHF and mobile coverage may be poor too.

Clearly there are some laser characteristics that could be as good and in *some* cases better than pyrotechnic flares, but I'm just a tad concerned that comparisons here may at times have with been with some "generic" pyrotechnic flare, overlooking some key characteristics of, eg , a parachute flare (eg height) that are not provided by a laser flare.

I found this video really helpful in illustrating the differences:

Distress Flares & Signals Pt 2 - YouTube

Actually part 1 (introduction) is helpful too - and includes a RIB!

Distress Flares & Signals Pt1 - YouTube

I can see the value in carrying a laser flare in addition to pyrotechnic flares, but really can't at present see why one would not carry traditional flares especially a parachute type.

My 2p worth...

Steve

[PeterM]

I've never actually carried a para flare on my own boat .....

Maybe a valid point for over the horizon rescue, but I think has been made clear laser flares are a PLB/DSC addition for the last mile of finding me.

[SPR]

Originally Posted by Copinsay

Hi All

Not sure if I've missed something here...
Steve

Yes you have ! I have not once stated the Greatland Rescue Laser Flare is a replacement for Parachute Flares...or that Greatland Rescue Laser Flare are a primary means of distress.

They ARE to aid rescuers to find you after another means of distress - PLB/EPIRB/VHF or dreaded mobile phone.

regards

S.

[Copinsay]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I've never actually carried a para flare on my own boat .....

Maybe a valid point for over the horizon rescue, but I think has been made clear laser flares are a PLB/DSC addition for the last mile of finding me.

In that context with you 100% Peter M, but if we look back at this thread, some contributors are taking the application much further than that and - worryingly in my view - suggesting that they would not carry pyro flares if they had a laser.

I'd also reiterate my point re base of cliffs too... An "over the horizon" incident doesn't need to be far out at sea.

If we are talking laser flares as *complementary* that seems fine, but as an alternative... I'd not bet my life on it, which is what we may be talking about here.

Cheers

Steve

[Pikey Dave]

Gone are the days when we had a fulltime overlapping Coastguard service covering the coastline of the UK, there is no man with the big binoculars looking out over the sea anymore. Despite the Colregs, many commercial vessels don't keep a permanent lookout on the bridge, they increasingly rely on electronic means to "keep watch". If I was in the deep brown stuff, I wouldn't want to think that my only hope was a 45sec untested firework that someone might see AND take some action. What I want to do is press a button that squawks every ship in VHF range & wakes up the lookout, & deploy the PLB that lights up the bods in Falmouth. The DSC call should get me a response & at least I know the cavalry is on its way, you don't get that with a flare. The PLB will be constantly transmitting my position which will be picked up by each pass of the satellite + it will be sending a 121mhz homing signal.
A laser flare would be the icing on the cake, not the primary means of summoning help. IMHO pyrotechnics have had their day, they are expensive, untestable, potentially dangerous, a PITA to get rid of, transient in operation, you have to surrender them at the ferry as they are classed as offensive weapons (they let me keep the kitchen knives ) AND the bloody French fine you if they are out of date

[Copinsay]

Originally Posted by SPR

Yes you have ! I have not once stated the Greatland Rescue Laser Flare is a replacement for Parachute Flares...or that Greatland Rescue Laser Flare are a primary means of distress.


S.

Hmmmm - from what you say SPR, I also missed where I said that you, personally, "stated the Greatland Rescue Laser Flare is a replacement for Parachute Flares" - perhaps you could point me to where I did that (using a laser or pyrotechnic flare!)

The issue for me here is the comments made by people who are talking in a wider usage context.

I appreciate that you may be especially sensitive as seemingly one of the vendors of such items, but my priority here is ensuring people who are less well informed and potentially lured by the technology, are very clear about where their use may be helpful - or not And in a thread of some 12 pages, it is apparent - and understandable - there is some creep in where they can be useful. For example, people talking about avoiding the need for having explosives (ie pyro flares) on their boats.

Certainly I have thought seriously about getting a laser flare to use as PeterM suggests, but for anyone to buy one before having an appropriate set of pyro flares is, to me, foolish.

I'd love to do away with my pyro flares as they are a PITA to have here for several reasons (eg ferry crossings, disposal when expire), so very keen to encourage any developments that will remove those issues.

Cheers

Steve

[Copinsay]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

The DSC call should get me a response & at least I know the cavalry is on its way, you don't get that with a flare. The PLB will be constantly transmitting my position which will be picked up by each pass of the satellite + it will be sending a 121mhz homing signal.
A laser flare would be the icing on the cake, not the primary means of summoning help. IMHO pyrotechnics have had their day, they are expensive, untestable, potentially dangerous, a PITA to get rid of, transient in operation, you have to surrender them at the ferry as they are classed as offensive weapons (they let me keep the kitchen knives ) AND the bloody French fine you if they are out of date

While a big fan of DSC and indeed AIS (both of which I have) VHF coverage is very poor here in many places (as is mobile phone too- not sure where you boat) and also limited if your boat has capsized. While my lifejacket attached DSC handheld with hopefully still work, at 6w output still can be limited.

For sure a PLB great to have on your person (top priority for me - esp now legal to use on land too - I take it when out horse riding in the hills alone) as usually we have some view of the sky / satellites and the 406Mhz beacons with GPS data have speeded up location finding greatly.

I just like having a backup and even as a Yorkshireman living in Scotland, I'm happy to spend £80 or so and put up with some hassle for a set of six flares (in my grab bag) for the time they are really needed.

And I don't think anyone is suggesting that "my only hope was a 45sec untested firework" is a sensible position to be in either.

Steve

[SPR]

no offence was meant - I like yourself want to make sure that there is no doubt - hence I state in simple terms - to re-enforce they are not a replacement for parachutes flares.

I am now the sole importer of these in UK & Ireland...so want to make sure everybody knows the limitations.


S.