Flares

[Copinsay]

Originally Posted by SPR

no offence was meant - I like yourself want to make sure that there is no doubt - hence I state in simple terms - to re-enforce they are not a replacement for parachutes flares.

I am now the sole importer of these in UK & Ireland...so want to make sure everybody knows the limitations.


S.

No problem - huggs :o)

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by SPR

no offence was meant - I like yourself want to make sure that there is no doubt - hence I state in simple terms - to re-enforce they are not a replacement for parachutes flares.

I am now the sole importer of these in UK & Ireland...so want to make sure everybody knows the limitations.


S.

Hi, me again, sorry, can you guarantee that if I flash it at a UK or Irish SAR helo that they wont have to turn around and go home?
I realise that lasers have differant power outputs, but if your flashed by one you presumably wont know in advance if the levels are considered safe or not...

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Hi, me again, sorry, can you guarantee that if I flash it at a UK or Irish SAR helo that they wont have to turn around and go home?
I realise that lasers have differant power outputs, but if your flashed by one you presumably wont know in advance if the levels are considered safe or not...

On the basis your DSC radio is broadcasting position and if your in the water your PLB is broadcasting on 121.5 which they can DF on ........and the 406 alert has got to Flamouth......

You'd hope they dont take offence at a spot of red light and bugger off home

Its not like the nobbers that target choppers with point lasers ....

I reckon the SAR pilots & crew are some of the most experianced out there,and show bucket fulls of common sense by not just bailing on a tasking as they see a red light where they expect a casualty to be .......

[AJ.]

PeterM shined his new laser flare in my face on Sunday! I can still see

[SPR]

Thanks Peter - well answered - The fact flash of Greatland Laser is also Unique compared to a normal laser pointer - can't confuse both - and all likleness the SAR pilot will not know it was a laser.

I would also add that you will have added this to you CG66 or what you call in in Ireland.

Another interesting fact:

Quote from: Marine Offshore Rescue Advisory Group: Good practice in offshore rescue.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/2001/oto01040.pdf

Image Intensifiers. The most appropriate form of image intensifier is that used in Night Vision Goggles (NVG). These are already widely used in the armed forces and, if used by those searching for survivors at sea, would, according to the HSE report, significantly increase their chances of detecting and locating survivors at night. They could also provide rescuers with greater freedom of action when actually rescuing survivors.

A limitation of NVG is that bright lights such as flares or searchlights can temporarily blind the equipment. However careful operation can reduce the risk of this happening and, if it does, the search can still be continued with the naked eye until the NVG regain efficiency.

It is expected that the use of NVG would significantly enhance the chances of detecting survivors at night, particularly if they are wearing strobe lights or reflective tape (with the search vessel using a searchlight screened from the NVG).

So carrying traditional flares or shining bright torches will affect your rescuers helicopter if they have night vision (NVG).

Greatland Rescue Laser Flares dont affect NVG and are picked up by NVG

S.

[miccheck1516]

Im aware of helimed choppers being above someone having a heart attack, getting flashed by a laser (not just a red light), and returning home. The casualty died. Wether or not they died because the paramedic onboard couldnt get to the casualty is somethin we will never.
Im aware that some pilots need to have eyes tested after getting flashed by lasers etc, and am asking if spr can guarantee that sar pilots will not be affected by those regulations. (I think Its something to do with the caa but im not certain)

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Im aware of helimed choppers being above someone having a heart attack, getting flashed by a laser (not just a red light), and returning home. The casualty died. Wether or not they died because the paramedic onboard couldnt get to the casualty is somethin we will never.
Im aware that some pilots need to have eyes tested after getting flashed by lasers etc, and am asking if spr can guarantee that sar pilots will not be affected by those regulations. (I think Its something to do with the caa but im not certain)

That sounds a bit "...I was talking to a bloke in a pub, who new somebody, whose uncle once read on the internet...."

[SPR]

The only thing I can say is that Greatland Rescue Lasers - have been tested by the UK Military SAR , has had the RNLI using them with Helicopters and I have supplied a coastguard teams, mountain rescue teams with them.

S.

[SPR]

Police Aviation News 18th Feb 2006 – (British Based and was the Reason for selling UK)

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Ac...February06.pdf Page 13

Greatland Laser of Anchorage, Alaska, has announced that its Rescue Laser Flare® emergency signaling devices are both safe and the most effective product of its type available.

These products can be legally used as a distress signal in an emergency as well as tactical situations.

Rescue Laser devices send a conventional laser beam through a special optic that creates an expanding plane of light instead of a potentially harmful focused dot like a laser pointer making it easier to hit the intended target. Pointed at nearby wall produces a line a foot or so long. Pointed and slowly swept back and forth at a rescuer ten miles away and this same
line expands to 3,600 ft high.

The line cannot miss anything in its path—any portion of the line viewed by rescuers appears as a distant red flash like a red light on a police car distinctly different from other background light.

[miccheck1516]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

That sounds a bit "...I was talking to a bloke in a pub, who new somebody, whose uncle once read on the internet...."

Was on real rescues a few weeks ago.

Thanks spr im coming round to the idea. Seems there are calculations that can be done to work out if flash blindness is an issue. Would be interesting to see some of those

[SPR]

How about this?

Won't they stun the pilot/captain whose attention I'm trying to get?

No. When the fan of light crosses your target's vision it will appear as a brilliant flash in the distance and will in no way impair their night vision.

Comparison of cockpit illumination power densities of Rescue Laser Flare®
emergency signaling device vs. typical laser pointer

Let’s compare the amount of laser light power which illuminates an aircraft cockpit from the Rescue Laser to that of a typical laser pointer, at a common signaling distance of 1.5 miles. The laser power level illuminating the cockpit and hitting the pilot’s eye from the Rescue Laser is about one trillionth of a watt. This power level is very low because the Rescue Laser begins with a very small amount of laser light and then creates a very long 2 dimensional fan (line) of light further reducing the power density of the light. This level can be easily detected, but will not obscure pilot vision in any way.

However, because the light from the laser pointer remains in a relatively small one-dimensional pencil thin beam, the laser beam spot size at the aircraft is about 240CM (8 ft) in diameter. Because all of this light is concentrated in a relatively small spot, rather than spread out in a long line like the Rescue Laser, the power density impinging on the pilot’s eye is about 1,000 times greater from the laser pointer, at this distance.

Therefore, although the signaling capability of the Rescue Laser emergency rescue and signaling device remains effective for signaling SAR aircraft, the power levels (brightness) of the Rescue Laser is reduced by one thousand times, this is a level where visual flight acuity is not affected.


Supporting Analysis:

Rescue Laser Flare ®
7mW
5 degree fan angle (87 mrad)
1mrad narrow axis divergence angle
1.5 miles = 2,414 meters
Area of laser line at 2,414 meters = 5.07 Million cm2
Watts/cm2 = .007 / 5,070,000 cm2 = 1.30 x 10-9 W/cm2 = 0.0000000014 W/cm2

Typical Laser Pointer
5mW
1mrad divergence angle
1.5 miles = 2,414 meters
Area of spot at 2,414 meters = 45,745 cm2
Watts/cm2 = .005 / 45,745 cm2 = 1.1 x 10-7 W/cm2 = 0.0000001 W/cm2

The laser light power density from the laser pointer is 1,000 times higher than that from the Laser Flare, when both measured at 1.5 miles.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Im aware of helimed choppers being above someone having a heart attack, getting flashed by a laser (not just a red light), and returning home. The casualty died. Wether or not they died because the paramedic onboard couldnt get to the casualty is somethin we will never.
Im aware that some pilots need to have eyes tested after getting flashed by lasers etc)

I'm pretty sure that case was a laser pointer of illegal strength....and the outcome was the guy would have died anyway. Pilots have to have eye tests/medicals by approved opticians/ doctors anyway....

AJ can still see...well he saw that big yellow bouy in the fog!!!

[willk]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Thanks spr im coming round to the idea. Seems there are calculations that can be done to work out if flash blindness is an issue. Would be interesting to see some of those

And the Marine Industry breaths a sigh of relief.

It's just a thought, miccheck1516, but perhaps you could kick this one upstairs to one of those experts on the higher pay-grade that you have on tap, see what they make of it all? Then you could report back here and put us all out of our misery. At least then we'd know if the product had your imprimatur and we wouldn't have to endure seeing poor SPR defend his product against potentially nonexistent issues.

[SPR]

This is the Instruction's that was approved by the Military Laser Safety Committee (MSLC)- it has safe working distances as stated by the DSTL (defence Science and Tech. Lab.) That also matches with the USA Miltary Testing Report.

Scott

[Copinsay]

Originally Posted by miccheck1516

Was on real rescues a few weeks ago.

Thanks spr im coming round to the idea. Seems there are calculations that can be done to work out if flash blindness is an issue. Would be interesting to see some of those

I really do think we can trust that if these are being trialled and used, and referred to by the MCA for the UK, there is not an issue of blindness here.

Look at how many lasers are used in nightclubs and outdoor events that shine right down onto the crowd.

While I'm the first to point out that these are complementary and not a replacement for all pyro flares, I think it unfair with no factual basis to try and suggest these offer some sort of risk to SAR crews.

If there were any such concerns they would have been stated for sure , eg here:

Newsroom - Press Releases

Or for a local to me illustration of the difference:

BBC News - Laser shone at rescue helicopter pilot in Orkney

Steve

[AJ.]

Originally Posted by SPR

This is the Instruction's that was approved by the Military Laser Safety Committee (MSLC)- it has safe working distances as stated by the DSTL (defence Science and Tech. Lab.) That also matches with the USA Miltary Testing Report.

Scott

SPR I know I am a week late but was well impressed by the build and quality when I saw PeterM's new laser will contact you now to place my order.

Alex

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I'm pretty sure that case was a laser pointer of illegal strength....and the outcome was the guy would have died anyway. Pilots have to have eye tests/medicals by approved opticians/ doctors anyway....

AJ can still see...well he saw that big yellow bouy in the fog!!!

Ahh right, so assuming miccy is in complete possession of the facts, which as a "professional" we can assume he is, he was being disingenuous/ trolling. Is it me or does every thread that he gets involved in, end up with him looking a bigger terwat than he was when he started

[gennaro]

SPR - I too am very impressed with the quality and am glad I now have it as an addition to my safety kit. The SOLAS tape you included is a nice wee bonus

Great the way you have responded to ill-founded concerns.

[miccheck1516]

Not sure how you can be sure he would have died anyway, it certainly wasnt the impression given by the program.

I dont think, given the fact that people have been prosecuted, that asking about shining a laser at a helo is ill founded, but hey its your opinion and I can respect that.
I appreciate spr taking the time to answer my queries, and infact answering extremely well.
Sorry pikey, the thread isnt about me so ill leave you to calling people names on the internet, big lad!

[PeterM]

I know because I actually remember it...and at the investigation to the whole thing it was found the attendance of the helicopter and transfer etc would in expert opinion not have led to a differing outcome.