Generating power

[Iankristy]

As petroleum faces it’s inevitable decline I don’t see much in the way of innovation in the power boat world. Mebbe I’m not looking in the right places? If the E series formula one cars are possible so are decent powerboats. That might be a racing series at first then technology passed down as ever. Here’s my two pence:
One thing we don’t lack is wind. Either stationary at sea or making our own. I’ve never seen wind generation on a boat to harness the momentum of the boat. Yes on yachts they top up, but not at 40+ knts. Why not?

[jeffstevens763@g]

I know they shut down offshore wind turbines when it’s too strong wind because the gearbox’s can’t stand it

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

I know they shut down offshore wind turbines when it’s too strong wind because the gearbox’s can’t stand it

Yeah but not at 40knts? 80 Mebbe but I can’t afford that boat anyway so who cares 🤷*♂️

[jeffstevens763@g]

For info

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles...-severe-storms

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Iankristy

As petroleum faces it’s inevitable decline I don’t see much in the way of innovation in the power boat world. Mebbe I’m not looking in the right places? If the E series formula one cars are possible so are decent powerboats. That might be a racing series at first then technology passed down as ever. Here’s my two pence:
One thing we don’t lack is wind. Either stationary at sea or making our own. I’ve never seen wind generation on a boat to harness the momentum of the boat. Yes on yachts they top up, but not at 40+ knts. Why not?

Cars generate power when braking.
Yachts use free wind.
To produce wind power from a petrol powered boat would require additional use of fuel, boats don’t brake. The (1st?) law of thermodynamics would come into play.

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Cars generate power when braking.
Yachts use free wind.
To produce wind power from a petrol powered boat would require additional use of fuel, boats don’t brake. The (1st?) law of thermodynamics would come into play.

Yeah I get they would use fuel to generate wind. I’m just saying they’re gonna use it anyway. Of course generation causes resistance but doesn’t it add more than it takes? We’re gonna have to do something. What else is my point? Where the hybrids?

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

For info

https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles...-severe-storms

Yeah 55mph would be fine too [emoji23]

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Cars generate power when braking.
Yachts use free wind.
To produce wind power from a petrol powered boat would require additional use of fuel, boats don’t brake. The (1st?) law of thermodynamics would come into play.

Also I’m not saying they should cut and paste formula E. I’m saying that without that high level r and d nothing is moving forward.

[TmMorris]

It sounds like you've just invented a perpetual motion device?

Your fundamental issue is that mankind has not yet come close to cracking efficient electricity storage. It is afterall the whole issue with renewables, there are no chemical batteries capable of efficiently storing the energy produced so it has to work on a use or lose it principle.

We can get around the issue of insufficient energy density in chemical batteries in cars as they can store the mass more easily, have lower rolling resistance and also can use regen.

With a boat you have huge resistance from the water and if you were to fit wind generators you'd just be magnifying the air resistance and making it even less efficient. The simple reality is that we don't yet have the battery technology to enable a performance boat to operate for more than a short moment. Don't forget that until a year or so ago a Formula E race required the driver to use two cars to reach the finish.

Battery tech is improving but you need a step change before they could be used to power a speedboat for any time or distance.

Closest next step is solid state Li which Toyota is going to be fitting to hybrid cars by 2025. These batteries will be around 30% more efficient for the size and weight than current Li tech and be able to be charged quicker (not that anyone has thick enough cables to do so). But even that isn't likely to produce a viable EV powerboat.

The whole of civilisation is retarded by our inability to efficiently store electricity. In 2022 we're still having to store it as water that's been pumped uphill, the same as the Babylonians we're doing 4,000 years ago.

Re onboard generation, you wouldn't use wind as that will cost you more energy than you can make but you'd use solar. Again, in time, you'll be able to make flexible, durable surfaces that can absorb solar energy without inhibiting weight or wind resistance. The current next gen solar could work as a 'wrap' on cars but again this is years away.

Marine will probably try to move to biofuels but these are an environmental disaster that's already underway as we are financially rewarding developed nations to cut down forests and plant toxic, no biodiverse single crops as well as financially rewarding farmers to not produce food. Plus, there is no viable industry audit process to legally guarantee that a biofuel has been generated from waste. While the world starves and faces huge wheat prices we are paying to have corn grown which we then convert to methanol and biodiesel and burn. It's not ideal.

There's some really interesting stuff on the horizon but this transition phase is an absolute mess.

[Ribtecer]

I don't buy any of this power for free business.

What I would like to see is the constant drive/strive for more efficient ICE, but banning them before the correct new technology is available is not going to make that happen. Why spend R&D on what will soon be illegal?

It all seems mad to me, politicians dabbling in stuff they don't understand to make big headlines.

As my grandmother used to say; "them's who live longest, sees most"

[Ribtecer]

Originally Posted by Ribtecer

I don't buy any of this power for free business.

What I would like to see is the constant drive/strive for more efficient ICE, but banning them before the correct new technology is available is not going to make that happen. Why spend R&D on what will soon be illegal?

It all seems mad to me, politicians dabbling in stuff they don't understand to make big headlines.

As my grandmother used to say; "them's who live longest, sees most"

I wrote that before reading TimMorris's post, he makes great points put very well. 👍👍👍

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

It sounds like you've just invented a perpetual motion device?

Your fundamental issue is that mankind has not yet come close to cracking efficient electricity storage. It is afterall the whole issue with renewables, there are no chemical batteries capable of efficiently storing the energy produced so it has to work on a use or lose it principle.

We can get around the issue of insufficient energy density in chemical batteries in cars as they can store the mass more easily, have lower rolling resistance and also can use regen.

With a boat you have huge resistance from the water and if you were to fit wind generators you'd just be magnifying the air resistance and making it even less efficient. The simple reality is that we don't yet have the battery technology to enable a performance boat to operate for more than a short moment. Don't forget that until a year or so ago a Formula E race required the driver to use two cars to reach the finish.

Battery tech is improving but you need a step change before they could be used to power a speedboat for any time or distance.

Closest next step is solid state Li which Toyota is going to be fitting to hybrid cars by 2025. These batteries will be around 30% more efficient for the size and weight than current Li tech and be able to be charged quicker (not that anyone has thick enough cables to do so). But even that isn't likely to produce a viable EV powerboat.

The whole of civilisation is retarded by our inability to efficiently store electricity. In 2022 we're still having to store it as water that's been pumped uphill, the same as the Babylonians we're doing 4,000 years ago.

Re onboard generation, you wouldn't use wind as that will cost you more energy than you can make but you'd use solar. Again, in time, you'll be able to make flexible, durable surfaces that can absorb solar energy without inhibiting weight or wind resistance. The current next gen solar could work as a 'wrap' on cars but again this is years away.

Marine will probably try to move to biofuels but these are an environmental disaster that's already underway as we are financially rewarding developed nations to cut down forests and plant toxic, no biodiverse single crops as well as financially rewarding farmers to not produce food. Plus, there is no viable industry audit process to legally guarantee that a biofuel has been generated from waste. While the world starves and faces huge wheat prices we are paying to have corn grown which we then convert to methanol and biodiesel and burn. It's not ideal.

There's some really interesting stuff on the horizon but this transition phase is an absolute mess.

That’s all pretty interesting. Although some of it sounds like things people said about cars a few years ago? Why no hybrid boats? I guess the markets just too small for serious investment.

[Ribtecer]

Originally Posted by Iankristy

That’s all pretty interesting. Although some of it sounds like things people said about cars a few years ago? Why no hybrid boats? I guess the markets just too small for serious investment.

Simple answer; Cars roll, boats push their way thru water, totally different levels of energy required.

No simple perfect green answers, which is why I said we should be looking to get the best and more out of the ICE.

A friend bought his wife an electric smart car, and it got me thinking about one. However the battery has recently gone fut, new battery 8K and old one goes in landfull.

He has a Tesla, new battery for that hes says is 20k.

I'm now sticking to ICE for the time being.

[TmMorris]

What type of hybrid? Self charging or plug in?

Self charging is just a tax ruse to avoid urban air taxes and VED and BIK rates. You obviously can't create free electricity from nothing. As you don't have those taxes on boats then there is no commercial reason for dumping the complexity and weight of an extra motor, an antonov gearbox and a load of batteries into a boat to make it even less efficient.

With a plug in hybrid you still have the problem of loading the boat up with a chunk of additional mass, again no tax benefits and then you have the problem of needing to run massive, high voltage cables to the water front where the boat owner can use his wet hands to shove a wet plug into a wet socket and dry himself to ash.

Even if we wait until we have invented a battery that is capable of storing and releasing enough energy to power a grossly inefficient boat with no regen capability without the weight sinking it you still have the problem that each owner will die the first time they go to refuel

It's just a problem that will get solved many, many years from now.

[Ribtecer]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

It's just a problem that will get solved many, many years from now.

Ain't that the truth?

[Steve509926]

What did you do your doctorate in Tim

Seriously though, that's probably the best explanation I've ever read/heard as to why we are still years/decades away from truly carbon free transport.

Now can you explain why increasing interest rates is supposed to reduce inflation caused by global problems

[TmMorris]

Originally Posted by Steve509926

What did you do your doctorate in Tim

Seriously though, that's probably the best explanation I've ever read/heard as to why we are still years/decades away from truly carbon free transport.

Now can you explain why increasing interest rates is supposed to reduce inflation caused by global problems

Hi Steve. We raise capital for companies, most of which are in the space so I'm having to read this stuff all the time. We'll get there but some bits of transport are nowhere close to real change yet.

Re rates, there are two things at play, the housing market is broken. Prices just keep rising so rising rates would in theory temper this but the only real solution would be to push a lot of the excess capital away from the property market via some form of additional taxation on additional property ownership. But as most of those properties are BTL then all you do is raise rents.

Anyway, the real reason is because as you say, the inflation is global and overseas but we import our energy for example and the oil market is priced in USD. So if the GBP falls in value against the USD then the price of oil goes up for us. So to try and stop that happening we have to raise our rates when the US does. The GBP has still fallen from 1.36 to 1.24 this year which isn't good.

There's also another reason and that's to start diminishing the amount of zero interest borrowing/spending because it's essential that a key element of society focuses on this winter's heating costs which will be huge. However, people have a habit of shopping over the summer rather than saving for a winter that's 6 months away. It also ties in with the news that services like Klarna will having to report to credit agencies etc.

All in, winter is going to be grim. They need people at risk to not spend over summer or the taxpayer bill to assist with their hearing is going to be even higher. Plus, the majority actually have excess cash due to furlough and they want that money back.

Sorry, you triggered my financial nerd!

[Steve509926]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

Hi Steve. We raise capital for companies, most of which are in the space so I'm having to read this stuff all the time. We'll get there but some bits of transport are nowhere close to real change yet.

Re rates, there are two things at play, the housing market is broken. Prices just keep rising so rising rates would in theory temper this but the only real solution would be to push a lot of the excess capital away from the property market via some form of additional taxation on additional property ownership. But as most of those properties are BTL then all you do is raise rents.

Anyway, the real reason is because as you say, the inflation is global and overseas but we import our energy for example and the oil market is priced in USD. So if the GBP falls in value against the USD then the price of oil goes up for us. So to try and stop that happening we have to raise our rates when the US does. The GBP has still fallen from 1.36 to 1.24 this year which isn't good.

There's also another reason and that's to start diminishing the amount of zero interest borrowing/spending because it's essential that a key element of society focuses on this winter's heating costs which will be huge. However, people have a habit of shopping over the summer rather than saving for a winter that's 6 months away. It also ties in with the news that services like Klarna will having to report to credit agencies etc.

All in, winter is going to be grim. They need people at risk to not spend over summer or the taxpayer bill to assist with their hearing is going to be even higher. Plus, the majority actually have excess cash due to furlough and they want that money back.

Sorry, you triggered my financial nerd!

Thanks Tim, I've been asking that question since the turn of the year and that is the first answer that -

a. I understand

and

b. Makes sense

[Ferryman]

I’m just saying - you could go sailing if you feel that strongly about it!

[Iankristy]

Originally Posted by Ferryman

I’m just saying - you could go sailing if you feel that strongly about it!

No thanks lol. Just interested if there’s developments out there that I don’t know about. So far, apparently not! Fuel ain’t gonna get cheaper. In the car industry it took industry leaders to make a leap of faith and invest. Who’s gonna do that for the powerboat world ?