Has health and safety taken over too much?

[davej]

I guess in some ways we do agree with you to an extent but and its a big but, if you have lots of local knowledge and loads of experience you can mostly get away with things.

We go to Norway frequently as we have family there and its very common to see very small boats a long way offshore in the lochs/fiords and have done it myself and thought this is a little iffy perhaps not really dangerous but it would be for the inexperienced.
After my little experience!! I now have the CG number in my phone and take my handheld VHF.

I have thought I would rather be in my RIB now as the chop started to grow and the water goes black!

Just a thought about reliability and OBs, in the 70s and 80s we had Evinrude 40hp on a dory and it never ever let us down. It might not have been the most fuel efficent or powerful motor but it was simple and reliable, just didn't do things like go to the eddistone on a misty day etc, which I would do now.

Dave j

[willk]

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

I reckon JSP, Knot Yet and Codprawn have all united to become willk

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

I think JSP and knot yet sold their boats didn't they. Codprawn Other posts would intimate he is either gathering useless detailed knowledge of everything, or moving sh*t on pallets.

I always enjoyed C-P. He was never too far off the money. JSP made me BMBL more often than most and Knotty wuz always a Laydee, 'cept when she tole me to fkk orf

I miss 'em all and it's a lot of work trying to maintain their aggravation levels by meself (although I see a hint of The Force in Cheeky Monkey - on here)

"Orl my own work. Gis a penny Guv'ner?"

[Poly]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

I think JSP and knot yet sold their boats didn't they. Codprawn Other posts would intimate he is either gathering useless detailed knowledge of everything, or moving sh*t on pallets.

Codders is alive and well, I spoke to him a few weeks back when he shipped a pallet for me, just too busy with work to be wasting his life on here like the rest of us! JSP is apparently live and well too... and from his facebook posts is still "on form".

[alystra]

Originally Posted by sarahscottiedog

WOW great RNLI statistics !

Power / pleasure craft 24% of casualties
Commercial / MOD 2%

Seen LOTs of comments and posts on here about "cowboy" operators, but statistic clearly show having the qualifications means they are ten tinme less likely to need the RNLI !
IMO the sooner the legal requirements from trainig and qualifications the better !

SO here starts another discussion........................................ ......

No, they don't.
Commercial operators have many more restrictions placed on them than leisure craft, in terms of area of operations, wind strength, sea state they are allowed to operate in. Their boats are generally built or equipped to much higher standards than leisure boats. They are inspected regularly and defects have to be fixed before they are allowed to continue. They operate in familiar waters. This regime has as much effect on safety as the skippers ticket. Overall, these requirements are expensive and restrictive and would be onerous for the average leisure owner.

There are more call outs to leisure craft because there are very many more leisure craft around at sea than there are commercial craft. A better measure of accident statistics would be to compare the number of leisure craft accidents to the number of leisure craft in use. I think you will find that the leisure craft are not anywhere near to ten times more likely to have an accident than commercial craft.

A while ago, the RYA compared leisure boat accident rates form various countries, most of which had compulsory 'driving' tests for skippers. The results showed a much higher accident rate in those countries with these tests than in the UK, where education is the preferred way.

The reason for this is that, in order for the tests to be acceptable, they have to be very simple. Once passed, there is no incentive to learn any more, as one is 'legal'. In a compulsory state organised scheme, few if any skippers would bother with further education. How many drivers, for instance, bother to do an advanced driving course and test? A very small percentage, I'll warrant.

The voluntary RYA schemes start simply, but at each stage, the student is made aware that there is still much to learn, and there is a way to get that knowledge.

Insurance companies have a part to play, and do, in persuading skippers to gain some sort of training and qualification, by severely penalising those without with much higher premiums.

Legislation is not the way forward.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by willk

I miss 'em all and it's a lot of work trying to maintain their aggravation levels by meself (although I see a hint of The Force in Cheeky Monkey - on here)

"Orl my own work. Gis a penny Guv'ner?"

What an egocentric tw*t you are , I do my best to irritate people and I've been doing it on this forum a lot longer than you!

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

What an egocentric tw*t you are , I do my best to irritate people and I've been doing it on this forum a lot longer than you!

Welcome to Wilknet.

[Rogue Wave]

I think you take what you think you need, The previous generation wasn't as well informed as us re the dangers of the sea and in particular hypothernia and problems from immersion.

Theres also 2 types of people the lucky ones and the unlucky ones, We all know people who have smoked 40 fags a day for 50 years with no probs likewise some of us are watching our friends killing themselves through smoking. Same applies to Safety Kit if you need it it's handy for it to be there and a bummer if it aint. so I guess before one goes ut you should do a Clint Eastwood and ask yourself if you feellucky

Bear in mind that as a boat skipper you need to adopt a CYA attitude in case things go wrong and the lawyers get involved so not having TPA's would be damning if one of your passengers was suing you for enabling them suffer from hypothermia.

Theres always the patented Dirk Diggler safety kit condoms and sunies if
you want to travellight.

for me its a minimum of small 1st aid kit, flares, VHF, Toolkit and TPA's and I always wear the Killchord and lifejacket, in fact nobody gets on my boat without one.

[HUMBER P4VWL]

he does have double your posts willk! You'd have to be at least twice as antagonistic just to be as bad!

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

What an egocentric tw*t you are , I do my best to irritate people and I've been doing it on this forum a lot longer than you!

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

he does have double your posts willk! You'd have to be at least twice as antagonistic just to be as bad!

Thank you I'ts nice to be appreciated

[Poly]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

he does have double your posts willk! You'd have to be at least twice as antagonistic just to be as bad!

Ah you've missed the fact that Willk has managed to cram those posts into about 2.5 year whereas RW has been talking drivel for nearly 7...

...Willk is in fact spouting rubbish and abuse at a far higher rate than RW is managing, but RW has been doing it for longer To be fare to Stu he does occassionally post some helpful or constructive stuff too, and he doesn't have the added responsibility of being the one man Redbay marketing machine.

[HUMBER P4VWL]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Ah you've missed the fact that Willk has managed to cram those posts into about 2.5 year whereas RW has been talking drivel for nearly 7...

...Willk is in fact spouting rubbish and abuse at a far higher rate than RW is managing, but RW has been doing it for longer To be fare to Stu he does occassionally post some helpful or constructive stuff too, and he doesn't have the added responsibility of being the one man Redbay marketing machine.

so IYHO who is the most annoying member statistically?

What percentage of posts from each ended in the bilges?

[sarahscottiedog]

Originally Posted by alystra

No, they don't.
Commercial operators have many more restrictions placed on them than leisure craft, in terms of area of operations, wind strength, sea state they are allowed to operate in. Their boats are generally built or equipped to much higher standards than leisure boats. They are inspected regularly and defects have to be fixed before they are allowed to continue. They operate in familiar waters. This regime has as much effect on safety as the skippers ticket. Overall, these requirements are expensive and restrictive and would be onerous for the average leisure owner.

There are more call outs to leisure craft because there are very many more leisure craft around at sea than there are commercial craft. A better measure of accident statistics would be to compare the number of leisure craft accidents to the number of leisure craft in use. I think you will find that the leisure craft are not anywhere near to ten times more likely to have an accident than commercial craft.

A while ago, the RYA compared leisure boat accident rates form various countries, most of which had compulsory 'driving' tests for skippers. The results showed a much higher accident rate in those countries with these tests than in the UK, where education is the preferred way.

The reason for this is that, in order for the tests to be acceptable, they have to be very simple. Once passed, there is no incentive to learn any more, as one is 'legal'. In a compulsory state organised scheme, few if any skippers would bother with further education. How many drivers, for instance, bother to do an advanced driving course and test? A very small percentage, I'll warrant.

The voluntary RYA schemes start simply, but at each stage, the student is made aware that there is still much to learn, and there is a way to get that knowledge.

Insurance companies have a part to play, and do, in persuading skippers to gain some sort of training and qualification, by severely penalising those without with much higher premiums.

Legislation is not the way forward.

Cant simply count the number of boats.......... a private rib that goes out once a month verses a commercial rib that is out probably at least 20 days every month. Need to count the number of hours on the water if you want to get too scientific with the data !

And if you take your argument to the full why not do away with the car driving test and just penalise drivers though their insurance if they can't be bothered to take it ? IMO the sooner some minimum legal requirements are inforced before being allowed to set to sea the better !

[willk]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

so IYHO who is the most annoying member statistically?

What percentage of posts from each ended in the bilges?

You can add "banned" to that list of criteria - make it more interesting...

In fact, who did his Lordship create the bilges for?

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by sarahscottiedog

Cant simply count the number of boats.......... a private rib that goes out once a month verses a commercial rib that is out probably at least 20 days every month. Need to count the number of hours on the water if you want to get too scientific with the data !

This is one of the problems with statistics. You could also argue that there are far more leisure boats than commercial which also skews the figures.
The fact that boating callouts happen most frequentely when winds are force 3 or below probably means that this is the time most folk go out in nice weather. It is also the time when the least prepared and least experienced venture out.
I don't believe in legislation, it isn't proved to reduce accidents and there is no need for even more red tape around yet another area in addition to the many already introduced in recent years.
You have to look at the risk and there is a low risk of injuring folk on the water but a high risk on the roads when untrained.
If no-one had sat a driving test would you feel the odds were on your side driving to work each morning about managing it in one piece?
Alternatively what are the chances of the same when untrained on a boat of reaching your destination unscathed by another boat, a lot higher I'll bet!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

so IYHO who is the most annoying member statistically?

What percentage of posts from each ended in the bilges?

Bilged posts don't get counted in the stats...

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by sarahscottiedog

IMO the sooner some minimum legal requirements are inforced before being allowed to set to sea the better !

seconded there should be a test, not neccasarily compulsory Basic Training though, the problem I guess is policing ad all the Admin that involves. makes iy unrealistic. I however in theory agree with you.

I'm very much in favour of the slipways that insist onseeing your insurance before you launch

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by willk

You can add "banned" to that list of criteria - make it more interesting...

In fact, who did his Lordship create the bilges for?

Nope, it's your show. Run with it.

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I'm very much in favour of the slipways that insist onseeing your insurance before you launch

I don't. Slipways in Scotland are generally free and council owned. Introducing a check means charges to pay for the actual check and I don't see how this benefits anyone.

I am insured and well qualified so I am not arguing against legislation because it doesn't affect me (ie pulling the ladder up behind you) but very much in principle instead.
I have enough regulation and legalese every day without introducing it somewhere it really doesn't have any projected benefit.
Also if it cannot be policed, and I cannot see how it could except in very limited areas, then the system has no point as it can be ignored by the very persons it was aimed at!

[Rogue Wave]

I'm not obtuse to the difficulties in making it happen but nothing will make me change my mind that it is a good thing in theory.

I bought my first RIB cos I ws going to buy an EVO but realised I'd be dead or banned within 3 months. I realised I could push my luck on the water without any serious recrimination, so I bought a RIB (42 knots) and fillled my boots. No training, insured only in case it got stolen and not really caring about other water users. I was 45 at the time so old enough to know better If I had to have a ticket to get on the water I might not have been such a nuisance or maybe a danger to other water users, but if I was it would have been through choice and not ignorance/stupidity.

Diferent folks differnt strokes I guess, but I am not advocating compulsory trainig so I can get more work as a powerboat instructor I'm advocating a compulsory test and ticket so that people hit the water with knowledge. Having checks on a paid for well run slipway in my world is OK

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by HUMBER P4VWL

-
-
Many others in the area who are local to water and been on it for life don't use kill cords on dorys or in any of the ski craft/leisure craft to this day. Many fisherman convincingly argue against life jackets etc

.

I guess these salty dogs were of the same opinion was in those waters that dau and it was quite calm


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...oat-sinks.html