High tech kill cords - the next generation?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I can't hep thinking footstraps would have helped the Coxswain stay in the boat. I understand that they can break your ankles but i'd rather that to having my chest opened d by a prop.

nice day, family boating, sounds like overlooked the kill cord, whats the chances their feet would be in footstraps? Would a sprung throttle that returns to neutral/tickover if nobody keeps it open not be a more 'fail safe' approach?

how do they enforce it in SA and Spain where I believe this sort od Regs are in place?

because they don't have any accidents there do they?

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Poly

Would a sprung throttle that returns to neutral/tickover if nobody keeps it open not be a more 'fail safe' approach?

I sprung throttle would be vertually unusable in a bit of sea and, try out swimming an ingear boat at tickover.

The killcord doesn't require reinventing, it just needs to work and be worn.

[wavelength]

how do they enforce it in SA and Spain where I believe this sort od Regs are in place?

marine police and Coastguards with GUNS and lots of ATTITUDE!!! met coastguards out at sea all over the world and they aint all friendly and helpful like they are here! Nor are they volunteers as the UK coast teams are.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Mollers

sprung throttle would be vertually unusable in a bit of sea and,

do you think so? my understanding was this was the approach the RNLI used (as they don't use kill cords) and every bit of 'serious sea' I've been in meant the throttle was constantly being worked anyway.

The killcord doesn't require reinventing, it just needs to work and be worn.

mmm... any safety device that requires proactive use by human beings is fundamentally flawed. Most kill cords rely on actively killing the engine so the electrics don't fail safe (see RW's comments on boats he's driven where they don't work). Rely on the operator putting it on (see PD's comments about people who believe in them slipping up). Can fail (see various previous refs to crap red plastic, slipping off wrists etc).

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Poly

do you think so? my understanding was this was the approach the RNLI used (as they don't use kill cords) and every bit of 'serious sea' I've been in meant the throttle was constantly being worked anyway.
mmm...

For sure.

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by Poly

yes the RNLI do have footstraps (on at least some of their Atlantics). They also have the throttle's in an "odd" place almost behind the helm.

Yes the present RNLI Atlantic 85 is fitted with foot straps - both to give support in the rough stuff and also to help keep the crew within the foot print of the boat in the event of an inversion.



In relation to the trottle position - to helm is to understand - it is a very comfortable "neutral" position which reduces involuntary movement - the trottles are not spring loaded.

In relation to the old chesnut the RYA only receive £8.50 for every successful Powerboat Level 2 candidate - for this they supply the RTC with a photo I.D. certificate and a Start Powerboating Book.

My sincere condolences and sympathy goes out to the family involved and the people who were on scene.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

In relation to the trottle position - to helm is to understand - it is a very comfortable "neutral" position which reduces involuntary movement -

if you were speccing a pleasure boat for rough water use - would you consider this 'non standard' position?

the trottles are not spring loaded.

You had me thinking I had completely made that up - but I am sure I read it here, as well as it being in this:
The Code of Practice for Open Rescue Boats of Less than 15 Metres in Length Consultation

7.2.2 If engine stop cords are NOT provided with the engine:

• Throttles must be sprung loaded to return to idle

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by Poly

if you were speccing a pleasure boat for rough water use - would you consider this 'non standard' position?



You had me thinking I had completely made that up - but I am sure I read it here, as well as it being in this:
The Code of Practice for Open Rescue Boats of Less than 15 Metres in Length Consultation

Re: Position of throttles - what is the standard position? - on my personal boat the throttles are placed in the middle of the console which I detest and I would move them in a heart beat to this "non-standard" position if it didn't involved a lot of effort and money.

Re: Spring loading of throttles - my statement still stands - the document you refer to it still only a "draft"

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Poly

If you can get in the habit of clipping to wheel or screen then its in your face or needs removed before your start. It still won't guarantee it - but helps to get into the habit. The other 'trick' is to keep it attached to YOU when you get out. Then you have to reconnect to drive.

Maybe manufacturers should come up with a KC which wont allow the engine to start until it's attached to the helmsman?

[Bigtalljv]

anybody ever used the "wireless" kill switches out there? Do they work? Are they reliable?

[Searider]

How about a radio kill cord.

Low range (say, 5m) transponder that the helm wears.
All the time he's in the boat the engine is "live".
As soon as he's thrown out, engine killed.
No need to actually clip on anything. Transponder just needs to be in your pocket.

I'm not sure if i'm imagining this but I think I read about something like this in development a few years ago.

Come to think of it a lot of new cars have keyless entry that could surely be adapted to this purpose.

Terrible tragic accident and i'm sure we've all forgotten to clip on the kill cord on more than one occasion - I know I have.

[Bigtalljv]

quick search reveals

Boating To A New Level Of Safety - autotether.com
References for CoastKey

Ideas are good but it's more electronics in salt water....

[Nick Hearne]

Sure theses are available already, but still not infallible!
As you still need it on your person you may change jacket or trousers and forget to transfer the transponder, I dare say you would get some people clipping it to the keys, fat lot of good that would do!

Originally Posted by Searider

How about a radio kill cord.

Low range (say, 5m) transponder that the helm wears.
All the time he's in the boat the engine is "live".
As soon as he's thrown out, engine killed.
No need to actually clip on anything. Transponder just needs to be in your pocket.

I'm not sure if i'm imagining this but I think I read about something like this in development a few years ago.

Come to think of it a lot of new cars have keyless entry that could surely be adapted to this purpose.

Terrible tragic accident and i'm sure we've all forgotten to clip on the kill cord on more than one occasion - I know I have.

As to some saying mandatory training, not a bad idea but it may not have prevented this happening! You only have to look at the level of driving skills out on the road to see this is not fall proof!

And anther point is why people judge him on the fact he is a successful in life and can afford a nice rib and second home really what has it to do with this tragedy, I'm sure he did not mean for this to happen, are we all so perfect on here? I think not

[sly666]

These look good...
Boating To A New Level Of Safety - autotether.com

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by wavelength

I'm thinking the way forward for us may be a kill cord on every buoyancy aid/lifejacket on the boat and no spare. That way (unless they flip the switch) when you leave the helm the cord comes out and cant be started by another crew member unless he clips his personal kill cord into the switch, and he needs to actually have possession of the buoyance aid.

As the discussion of kill cord inventions continues, I would like to throw a couple ideas we posted to the public domain (for anyone to use) over the last few years.

1. Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) tag built into a life jacket or attached as a patch for use as a combination life jacket AND virtual kill cord. If you move too far from the helm the boat shuts down (just like the radio kill cords discussed earlier do). It encourages the operator to wear both a life jacket and a kill cord (similar to Wavelength's approach, but wireless).

RFID Boat Kill Switches (Engine Cut-Off Switches) – Five PGIC Invention Disclosures Posted August 29, 2011 :: Propeller Guard Information Center

2. System for Automatically Detecting and Stopping Boats in the Circle of Death

Identifies several means for determining boats are unmanned and circling, then automatically shutting them down. This approach requires NO action by the operator.

Circle of Death Boat Propeller Accident Invention :: Propeller Guard Information Center

The invention descriptions are a bit legal because we have previously posted other similar inventions and had them taken and patented by others. So we started detailing them enough to be sure they remained in the public domain (open to use by all).

gary
PropellerSafety.com

[9D280]

Originally Posted by behavin

wireless cords ? no way ! it has to be a physical attachment to the boat and the driver..as fail safe as it gets
.

Well, maybe. I have a 30-odd YO engine. The failsafe is that the switch is held open and when the cord is removed it shorts the ignition. Even if I test it before leaving the harbour, how do I know the connection inside the engine hasn't shaken loose as I head out over the waves?

The only way to properly failsafe is to have something like triple paralell wiring so 2/3 can fail "en route" & still work. Should also have a warning that will tell you if "non agreement" between the three cables is detected...or should it just shut the engine down?. Hang on, it's the old "Lee shore in a F6 and you can't motor off due to a grumpy engine management box" scenario again... etc etc.

Originally Posted by akirk

Is there any reason that you can't have a dead-man's switch like the ones on your lawnmower - on the throttle - release of switch and engine returns to idle / or even turns off - there is mention above of spring loaded throttles - are they not a better approach (though with the engine still idling - not sure if that is ideal)

We have a lot of technology elsewhere - from car seats with pressure sensors to detect whether you (or your shopping!) is wearing a seat belt - to lawn mowers / etc. It wouldn't be difficult to put these ideas into a boat - nor expensive, and I am sure that if we did - in 10 years time no-one would worry about the loss of the kill cord and letting the tech sort it out...

Originally Posted by Rokraider

personally, I often stand <etc>

There is some good discussion here, and I have to agree with Rokraider in that it's going to have to be more high tech than a simple pressure switch (my throttle frictrion screw was slightly loose at Easdale last weekend and I can tell you it was an @rse of a thing to drive for more than about 10 mins) I too was on & off the seat like a jack-in the box due to the weather conditions, so we're probably looking at some form of (as I said above) probably dual or triple optical sensor with comaparators..... (and if anyone patents that - note the time & date of this post )

Two problems with uber high tech solutions - there is more to go wrong (corroded connections etc) and even if they were a legislative must, to use the automotive comparison even in cars there are still a fair few Morris Minors / Austin 7s out there that (I think) you can still get away without a seatbelt if it wasn't fitted (as an optional extra) back in 1957 when it left the factory... (I am open to correction on that, but the simiar theme certianly applies to emmissions!)

Do you insist retro fitting all boats? Do you just live with the fact that there will not ever be a "universal" use of this new system? (and lets face it- how many Ribs are on here >20YO, and we on the forum are generally up to speed with the latest tech - how many Fletcher Arrowsports get dug out once a year and get towed somewhere on screeching brearings by people who go out as often as their boat sees water? What are the chances of them even kowing this new gizmo must be fitted?

[cptsideways]

There are cheap proximity immobilisers available for cars, one of my cars has one, you can only start the ignition if it is range, I'm sure a relay & some simple wiring will do the job easily.

A quick rummage on ebay reveals infra red proximity sensors, so electronics could be hidden behind a panel with just a the infrared unit poking through.

Infrared Proximity Sensor Switch E18-D80NK 3-80cm Adjustable Robot/Pi/PIC | eBay

NEW Sick WT34-R210 (1 019 232) Photoelectric Proximity Switch WT34R210 Sensor | eBay


Maybe we should start a seperate thread on the subject of kill switch ideas & designs?

[PGIC]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

personally, I often stand as I am going along as I am usually looking for people in the water and want the best view, so a pressure switch would not work for me....A proximity sensor seems a good idea, similar to the modern cars

Dick Snyder (well known propeller accident expert at Mercury Marine) co-invented such a device and Mercury patented it in 2002.

• U.S. Patent 6,450,845 Passive Occupant Sensing System for a Watercraft. By Dick Snyder, assigned to Brunswick on 17 Sept. 2002. An infrared system detects if the operator is in the boat driving seat or not (somewhat like a lanyard kill switch) and takes the appropriate actions if the boat is underway and the driver is gone (likely overboard).
  

Patent US6450845 - Passive occupant sensing system for a watercraft - Google Patents
click on download pdf in top right corner of link above to see full patent

While Mercury did not actually produce and sell this device, Mr. Snyder has previously said on numerous occasions that Mercury will grant rights to anyone to manufacture boat safety devices they have patented.

It would certainly be a good place to start if someone was interested in resurrecting this concept.

gary
propellersafety.com

[1978SeaRider]

I think an antiquated lanyard system is partly to blame... it's 2013, a new engine will costs you best part of 15k, yet we still rely on a piece of orange string clipped to your life jacket !?

My phone can turn my heating on from my office, yet the big 5 Engine companies cant make a simple wireless lanyard system as standard ? Keyless entry on a Ford Fiesta which costs less than my boat comes as standard.

Start blaming the multi-million pound companies that build the engines, not the poor sods that forget to clip on a calm day. Chucking a key fob in your pocket would take 5 seconds, you could still dock, pick up a diver, help a waterskier and wonder around the boat... but when the sh*t hits the fan and you fall out the boat stops - Rocket Science it aint.

Just my 2p.

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

It's a good point-it'd be quite easy to go over trying to pullstart a motor on an aux bracket.

Always remember an old guy from our boat club who had an old seagull engine as an aux on his sailing boat
When he was alone in the boat he would tie a piece of line to the spark plug cap with the view if he fell over the line would pull off the plug cap stopping the motor .