How do you put a 'name' on your RIB?

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Hi Cookee, thank you for correction, I thought it made Resin soft. I recall from my younger days about "Ladies Nail Cleaner" being used to clean Crash Helmets was a NO No. Meanwhile, I am sure that it is bad for the Tubes!!!! ANy comments,

Hi Aidan - Actually you are partly right - the polycarbonate helmets are affected by acetone, actually you can't even put stickers on them without compromising their strength!

Don't confuse Gelcoat and Resin - Acetone has no effect on Gelcoat and is very good for cleaning mark of it, however it can also be used on polyester resin for preparing the surface for a repair, so it will effect plain resin. I would have to ask Kitten about thinning down resin - personally I would add less catalyst!

Codprawn - I would have thought that it would be a good example of "it was going great just before it went bang!"

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Aidan

It is probably a carcenogen and seems to have a flash point of 24 deg C.

It is NOT carginogenic.

As Cookee says it will NOT harm gelcoat. It WILL harm many plastics - including polycarbonate.

It is widely used in cleaning and preparing hypalon tubes for repairs - so cleaning them before applying the name will NOT harm them.

Your flash point information is WRONG. Acetone has a flashpoint around -20 deg C. But to a "layman" flashpoint is pretty meaningless and potentially misleading (many people think it is the temp at which spontaneuos combustion happens). The FP of unleaded petrol is around -40 to -45 deg C.

Petrol is more hazardous. As are most paints, varnishes, thinners etc... use it with caution (use in a ventilated area, don't smoke, avoid prolonged skin exposure (e.g. nitrile gloves), and be especially careful of eye splashes) but don't be put off by misleading armchair chemists.

Neil

[Aidan]

Dear Polwart, I accept your rebuke as it was mentioned I am sure.

However, Whilst you mention it is not a carcenogen, neither was CCL4 once upon a time. I am sure you are correct, if only for the moment.
I am sure that most arguments will be proved wrong over time.

Now that aside and whilst I bow to your superior knowledge, i do have a question for you?

Is Hypalon different from the lower cost Material the name of which escapes me and if so, will the acetone react differently with it.

Many of these solvents will immediatly take away an oxidisd layer leaving it like a shiny penny for a short while but can cause damage including breaking down the mollecular strength of the material causing it to be brittle etc.

Yours,

The Armchair Chemist.

[Aidan]

Originally Posted by Cookee

Hi Aidan - Actually you are partly right - the polycarbonate helmets are affected by acetone, actually you can't even put stickers on them without compromising their strength!

Don't confuse Gelcoat and Resin - Acetone has no effect on Gelcoat and is very good for cleaning mark of it, however it can also be used on polyester resin for preparing the surface for a repair, so it will effect plain resin. I would have to ask Kitten about thinning down resin - personally I would add less catalyst!

Codprawn - I would have thought that it would be a good example of "it was going great just before it went bang!"

Hi Cookee, thank you for that information. You are absolutely correct in so far as I do not know the difference betwen Gel coat and Resin.
I am sure I could google this but I must admit that you have a nice way of explaining your answers which is of course the diference between a good lecturer and a great lecturer... I am listening Dude and thank You..

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Dear Polwart, I accept your rebuke as it was mentioned I am sure.

However, Whilst you mention it is not a carcenogen, neither was CCL4 once upon a time. I am sure you are correct, if only for the moment.
I am sure that most arguments will be proved wrong over time.

Now that aside and whilst I bow to your superior knowledge, i do have a question for you?

Is Hypalon different from the lower cost Material the name of which escapes me and if so, will the acetone react differently with it.

Many of these solvents will immediatly take away an oxidisd layer leaving it like a shiny penny for a short while but can cause damage including breaking down the mollecular strength of the material causing it to be brittle etc.

Yours,

The Armchair Chemist.

An unusual analogy to use, Carbon Tetrachloride (CCl4) is (I believe) recognised as a probable carcinogen. But it is also toxic - prolonged exposure to small quantities might cause cancer, but exposure to significant quantities (inhaled, swallowed or through your skin) is likely to kill you directly. I am not aware of any conclusive evidence that it is definitely carcinogenic - but I haven't searched for it. Carbon tet, is widely recognised by everyone who has ever used it as "nasty shit" (excuse the non-technical phrase). It has significant adverse effects on the environment as well as people. It does not occur naturally. You (as a member of the public) will find it very difficult to acquire.

Carbon tets' one saving grace is it is not flamable. The principle hazard associated with acetone is probably the fire hazard (although eye splashes are serious).

Acetone (propan-2-one) is a naturally occuring molecule. It can be produced and consumed by bacteria. But it is also produced (all be it in small quantities) by your body - as part of the mechanism by which you breakdown fat. If it were carcinogenic - it would be impossible to do anything about it! However it is not known to be carcinogenic. As one of the most commonly used chemicals in laboratories, and chemical production facilities and in the production of drugs and cosmetics the potential adverse effects have been studied. At high concentrations it is toxic. Extensive studies on workers regularly exposed to acetone does not show any evidence of it causing cancer. Animal studies show no evidence for it causing cancer through skin exposure. You are correct however in saying that its carginogenicity has not been fully investigated - largely because it is naturally ocurring at measurable quantities in all people, and because related molecules have been studied and are not carcinogenic.

Unlike carbon tet - acetone is relatively easily broken down in the environment and does not accumulate in animals. And should be easy to buy in relatively small quantities.

In the unlikely event you ever find conclusive evidence that acetone is carcinogenic - I will happily take a bath in acetone (wearing appropriate eye protection) - by way of an apology for providing misinformation.

I'll *try* to answer your hypalon question separately...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Is Hypalon different from the lower cost Material the name of which escapes me and if so, will the acetone react differently with it.

OK - I believe hypalon is chlorosulfonated polyethylene. Hypalon itself is a trademark of Dupont, but there are other people producing chlorosulfonated polythenes which are probably generally refered to as hypalon too (in the same way that hoover is now used to decribe all vacuum cleaners etc). Dupont probably produce different grades/blends of hypalon for different end uses.

I would expect all chlorosulfonated polyetheylenes to have broadly similar chemical resistance (although there may be some differences).

hypalon / chlorosulfonated polyethylenes are used for a whole range of applications not just boats.

When people talk about hypalon boats/tubes they are actually describing a mixture of materials. Typically a tube is made from several layers laminated together. The outside layer is hypalon. Then there is some sort of fabric layer which adds strength (e.g. Nylon). Then there is one (or more?) layers of neoprene - which actually holds the air in the tube. I assume there are various companies making this multilayer fabric - the only name I know is Pennel, who I think, sell it under the tradename Orca.

So in terms of "hypalon" we potentially have - different manufacturers, different grades of hypalon, potentially different lamination approaches / other materials in the fabric, etc... ...however broadly speaking I would expect all of these to perform similarly from a chemical resistance point of view. Wiping the hypalon outer surface with acetone should be fine in each case.

However, I assume your question was getting at PVC as the "other material" used in tubes. PVC = poly vinyl chloride. It is used for all sort of other applications too. It also has a huge number of different grades etc (e.g. uPVC is commonly used in window frames = the u here stands for "unplasticised"). Platicisers are, in brief, relatively small molecules which are added to plastics to soften them (they usually do this by getting between the polymer chains in the structure) - PVC itself is quite a "hard"/"solid" material - and so you add plasticisers to make it "soft"/"flexible". The problem with plasticisers is that the leach out of plastics over time (or degrade), this leaves the material stiffer (and more likely to fail) - as a side issue many plasticisers are rather harmful (possible carcinogens) and so when they leach out the plastic/rubber they can be a health hazard - this is NOT really an issue for boat tubes - but is e.g. with food containers, water pipes, baby toys etc..

So chemically the same "molecule" is used to make vinyl records (if you can remember back then!) and "fake" leather jackets. The difference is the plasticiser.

PVC boat fabrics are sometimes marketed under tradenames such as "Stongan" (the brand zodiac use). Again this is usually laminated into layers with other e.g. woven materials for strength etc.

Generally PVC is not described as being particularly compatible with acetone. But it depends what you are trying to do! When people (materials chemists) talk about compatability they normally mean what happens if you leave the material in a bucket of solvent for a week or two (or longer) - or how quick it permeates through (e.g. gloves or protective barriers), or even if the material "soaks" up some of the solvent. So don't leave a PVC boat soaking in acetone or it will get damaged (the acetone gets absorbed - swelling the material up and effectively making it too soft, and eventually turning it into a sloppy mess or it leaches the plasticiser out leaving you with brittle tubes). Anyway what you are trying to do is generally clean the "grime" off the tube before applying a patch or in this case a name. Acetone is OK for this - you are just wiping it over the surface not soaking it. It may leave the surface slightly sticky/tacky on PVC but you are trying to stick something on so that isn't a bad thing as such.

The repair kits for both PVC and hypalon usually recommend cleaning the surface with MEK or acetone.

Hope that helps. If it is tube/material specific info you want (rather than general "materials chemistry" then the practical experience of the tube makers/repairers on here is probably much more valuable.

[fast fred]

ya, Don't drink the A$$atone, it will go right through your skin, and it has been said that letting it soak through your skin to many times can make you a retard.
thats go for me.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by fast fred

ya, Don't drink the A$$atone, it will go right through your skin, and it has been said that letting it soak through your skin to many times can make you a retard.
thats go for me.

is that what happened to you

seriously though I wrongly made the assumption that anyone working with solvents regularly would wear appropriate gloves. (Actually this sort of effect, through the skin requires large amounts and/or repeated long term exposure). More likely is you strip all the oils out of your skin and get "dermatitis" type irritation.

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Polwart

OK - I believe hypalon is chlorosulfonated polyethylene. Hypalon itself is a trademark of Dupont, but there are other people producing chlorosulfonated polythenes which are probably generally refered to as hypalon too (in the same way that hoover is now used to decribe all vacuum cleaners etc). Dupont probably produce different grades/blends of hypalon for different end uses.

I would expect all chlorosulfonated polyetheylenes to have broadly similar chemical resistance (although there may be some differences).

hypalon / chlorosulfonated polyethylenes are used for a whole range of applications not just boats.

When people talk about hypalon boats/tubes they are actually describing a mixture of materials. Typically a tube is made from several layers laminated together. The outside layer is hypalon. Then there is some sort of fabric layer which adds strength (e.g. Nylon). Then there is one (or more?) layers of neoprene - which actually holds the air in the tube. I assume there are various companies making this multilayer fabric - the only name I know is Pennel, who I think, sell it under the tradename Orca.

So in terms of "hypalon" we potentially have - different manufacturers, different grades of hypalon, potentially different lamination approaches / other materials in the fabric, etc... ...however broadly speaking I would expect all of these to perform similarly from a chemical resistance point of view. Wiping the hypalon outer surface with acetone should be fine in each case.

However, I assume your question was getting at PVC as the "other material" used in tubes. PVC = poly vinyl chloride. It is used for all sort of other applications too. It also has a huge number of different grades etc (e.g. uPVC is commonly used in window frames = the u here stands for "unplasticised"). Platicisers are, in brief, relatively small molecules which are added to plastics to soften them (they usually do this by getting between the polymer chains in the structure) - PVC itself is quite a "hard"/"solid" material - and so you add plasticisers to make it "soft"/"flexible". The problem with plasticisers is that the leach out of plastics over time (or degrade), this leaves the material stiffer (and more likely to fail) - as a side issue many plasticisers are rather harmful (possible carcinogens) and so when they leach out the plastic/rubber they can be a health hazard - this is NOT really an issue for boat tubes - but is e.g. with food containers, water pipes, baby toys etc..

So chemically the same "molecule" is used to make vinyl records (if you can remember back then!) and "fake" leather jackets. The difference is the plasticiser.

PVC boat fabrics are sometimes marketed under tradenames such as "Stongan" (the brand zodiac use). Again this is usually laminated into layers with other e.g. woven materials for strength etc.

Generally PVC is not described as being particularly compatible with acetone. But it depends what you are trying to do! When people (materials chemists) talk about compatability they normally mean what happens if you leave the material in a bucket of solvent for a week or two (or longer) - or how quick it permeates through (e.g. gloves or protective barriers), or even if the material "soaks" up some of the solvent. So don't leave a PVC boat soaking in acetone or it will get damaged (the acetone gets absorbed - swelling the material up and effectively making it too soft, and eventually turning it into a sloppy mess or it leaches the plasticiser out leaving you with brittle tubes). Anyway what you are trying to do is generally clean the "grime" off the tube before applying a patch or in this case a name. Acetone is OK for this - you are just wiping it over the surface not soaking it. It may leave the surface slightly sticky/tacky on PVC but you are trying to stick something on so that isn't a bad thing as such.

The repair kits for both PVC and hypalon usually recommend cleaning the surface with MEK or acetone.

Hope that helps. If it is tube/material specific info you want (rather than general "materials chemistry" then the practical experience of the tube makers/repairers on here is probably much more valuable.

fuk mee. itts crismus eave. aynt yew gott sum crismus prezints too rap upp orr a tirkey too stuf orr sumfink

gaRF

[Poly]

Originally Posted by The Garfish

fuk mee. itts crismus eave. aynt yew gott sum crismus prezints too rap upp orr a tirkey too stuf orr sumfink

gaRF

no - the wife thinks I am busy working so she is doing all that... ...if I put the PC down she might make me work!

[Aidan]

Ok Polwart, Initially i thought you were full of shit, now I know you are!!!!

Ok So its Good Shit, I take it all back. If I am going at "my Tubes" versus anyone elses, i will consult with you.
You officially now qualify for non armchair, resident Chemist.. problem is you seem to know so much about these chemicals I have passed on your details to the DEA... Only joking.

Thank you for that and yes i could not think of PVC.

I wouldnt bath in the stuff tho, beyond the call of duty and all that.
I would hate for you to be wrong at that stage....
As you are on the case!!! what is the chemical they use in Dry cleaning.

Have you a chemical background

Meanwhile, I accept the term of Armchair Chemist in present company.

Happy Christmas..

Aidan

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Aidan

As you are on the case!!! what is the chemical they use in Dry cleaning.

Generally perchlorethylene (tetrachloro-ethylene to give it its "correct" name).

Have you a chemical background

Yes - degree in Materials Chemistry, and PhD in Physical Chemistry.

[brucehawsker]

Guess I may be older than some of you here! Read Chemistry at Oxford in the mid 70s and was in school labs in the late 60s! We had benzene, carbon tet, acetone sitting on the bench in glass stoppered bottles - and a raft of other nasties. Carbon tet is vile - smells of rotting cabbage - leave well alone.

Thanks for the lowdown on Hypalon - I wondered.

Practically - I use actone to clean my yellow tubes and my boat is two years old and four months with hypalon lettering stuck to the curving nose part of the tubes - some splitting (very fine lines) but basically fine.

[Shep Smythe]

This thread is MAD.

I'm still not sure how best to put the name on my RIB!!

Shepp

[vince]

I just got a local signwriter to cut me some peel-off templates (£20), bought a tin of hypalon paint (£10) and am going to do it this weekend. Easy.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Shep Smythe

This thread is MAD.

I'm still not sure how best to put the name on my RIB!!

Shepp

I think that is becuase the simple answer is there is no one best way. Any of the methods decribed will work. As with most things though if it costs more or involves more preparation then there is a good chance it will work/look better or last longer.

[Aidan]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Generally perchlorethylene (tetrachloro-ethylene to give it its "correct" name).



Yes - degree in Materials Chemistry, and PhD in Physical Chemistry.

I knew it Polwart, so it not only is it good shit, it is Qualified Good shit!
I know good shit when I hear it, bless your little cotton (darned) socks.

Hi SHep, Just Tattoo the bloody thing on.. get a local Chav with a steady hand to spray the thing...

Meanwhile Polwart, what the hell is a fine Chemist even a materially orientated one doing in the back of beyonds.....
Here comes Roberrrt Wallace, to defend the Scots ( as if they needed it).
Its still the back of beyonds lads... Ok Put together a Rugby team for teh six nations and we will recognise your existance.

Is that Dry Cleaning stuff bad for one? I can only guess it is.
I am sure Petrol is as bad if not worse (benzene--- Armchair Chemist and all...)

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Meanwhile Polwart, what the hell is a fine Chemist even a materially orientated one doing in the back of beyonds.....
Here comes Roberrrt Wallace, to defend the Scots ( as if they needed it).
Its still the back of beyonds lads...

At the risk of this thread drifting even more off course... there are many famous Scottish chemists. I imagine I find myself here - for similar reasons you find yourself in ireland.

Is that Dry Cleaning stuff bad for one? I can only guess it is.
I am sure Petrol is as bad if not worse (benzene--- Armchair Chemist and all...)

that depends what you do with it... there is evidence that perchloethylene causes cancer in lab animals, but it is not particularly flammable (althouh if you put it in a fire it produces very nasty fumes). All organic (in this sense it has nothing to do with the soil association) solvents should be treated with health respect.

[v666]

Funkey Monkey design do stencils and sell flexible paint for tubes

http://www.funkymonkeyboatnames.com/stencils.php#1

Tim

[Cork Rib]

Shep

give robert a ring at Bandon Office Supplies......he will sort you out with tube decals. These stay on

Jon