I hate to say 'I told you so', but...

[codprawn]

Cotton wool is much better!!!

[Brian]

I would like to agree to Jono's suggestion.
As Messrs. Pratt, Pillock and Plonker are likely to remain with us for some time unless we do something about it, perhaps a selective cull would improve the gene pool.
Unfortunately though, I suspect Sir Robert Peel might have something to say about it.

[Manos]

Originally Posted by Brian

You are, I am sure, a very responsible person and you run an outfit renting out powerboats to the public. Hmm. Now then let me see. I dont think you should hire a boat out to someone who is not at the level of RYA Instructor. Certainly all passengers must also be qualified in case they have to take over control of the boat. At least one crew member must be a properly trained paramedic. All aboard must wear full lifejackets 100% of the time.............I could go on. But you see where I am coming from? My "proposal" my be jolly sensible an may reduce the number of your clients that get hurt. But is it worth it?

I have answered this before. In Greece it does not matter you have Power Boat 1,2,3,4,1million certificate as this is ONLY for UK domestic use and is NOT recoginsed Internationaly.
What you need is to have to drive any power boat in Greece or in Europe (I think) is an ICC or if you come form another EU country the equivalent certificate there or if you come from the US, Australia etc an International Boating Certificate of Competence that is recognised in the EU.
When you hire a sailingh yacht you need to have two people with sailing yacht licences but for a power boat only one suffices. This is THE REGULATION here.
Now to have peace of mind and not to be asked question such as (Does this boat have a steering wheel? and this round thing screwed on the wall near the engine must be the oil filter (it was the fuel water separator in fact), and last and the funniest can you guarantee that the sea will be clam and would I get my money back if is not IT HAPPENED!!) we ONLY Hire our boats to people who have an ICC or equivalent EU certificate for a minimum of 3 years.

I agree with the popular view (which I also share 100%) that training is the answer but how many people will do it voluntarily. On the other hand if it was a law that said to get on a boat you MUST have a boating certificate of competence then everyone will get trained and accidents will be minimised IMHO.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Manos

we ONLY Hire our boats to people who have an ICC or equivalent EU certificate for a minimum of 3 years.

3 years is a very long time to rent a rib, surely it would be cheaper to buy one instead!

[The Jackeens]

Originally Posted by Brian

Of course, no one wants anybody killed or injured boating. But you can’t take risk out of the whole of life.

I agree with Brian. The risk factor is part and parcel of going boating whether crossing the Solent or taking part in a longer trip. I love to hear stories from others about adventures they have undertaken and sometimes the near misses they have had (Makes me feel a bit better about my own ). All part of the amazing fun of boating. People have generously posted on RIBnet in the past about incidents they have had in the hope of helping someone else. (And they have, thank you.)

Because incidents do happen. By and large they are freely reported and by and large people are sympathetic, seeking to understand, query crew actions and equipment functions/design in a responsible way or even offering to support. Sadly a very tiny minority choose to attack, incredible as it may seem!!!!!! All the more incredible when you see a fellow boater has suffered harm in one way or another!!!

There are unfortunately people like that out there who see their chance to ‘stick the boot in’ (to quote one) and therein lies the danger. Those are perhaps exactly the callous types who may think nothing of litigation should something go wrong. And stuff happens to all of us.



I’m not particularly brave but I know I’d prefer to go boating any day with an experienced risk-taker who can handle themselves in a crisis (and we have had the privilege of going to sea with many of those, and learning from them too, thank you). I think it was Dirk who once made the point about the ridiculousness of wearing a lifejacket at the Captain’s Table on a cruise . If people didn’t take risks we wouldn’t have the wonderful powerboat racing we witnessed last weekend in the Solent, or all the great stories about trips we have read. Including Keith (tales to tell) Hart’s amazing SIBbing adventures.



At the same time, responsible safety advice is always welcome in my view and I will always read Phil and Chris’ comments with interest as they are involved with safety in a professional capacity. Recently an instructor (and I think it was Paul Glatzel) generously posted in detail about MOB procedures. I really welcome such advice and try to learn from it so that I can try to do a bit better (make fewer mistakes ) next time. And I’m sure, Manos, for a commercial operator (i.e. when money changes hands for the experience of going boating) such advice and support is essential.

Missus

[Manos]

Originally Posted by The Jackeens

And I’m sure, Manos, for a commercial operator (i.e. when money changes hands for the experience of going boating) such advice and support is essential.Missus

UPSOLUTELY even with or without reputation points

[The Jackeens]

God the lengths peeps go to for a greenie (done)


Missus

[-Dan-]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

On average 12500 people die each year from accidents of which over half (6600) are more than 65 years old.
28% of deaths caused by accident occur on the roads.
32% of deaths caused by accident occur at home.
365 people die each year due to ‘Misadventure during surgical care’
In 2000 25 people died due to ‘Water transport accidents’
And 100000 people die each year from smoking related disease.

You are forgetting one major thing here: Proportion.

99% of the population regularaly use a private car, in comparison, a minute ammount use boats recreationally (where the accidents we are talking about occour).
Whilst only a few people got killed in boats, only a few people use boats, and therefore it is evident that the boating death statistics are going to be significantly lower.

Legislation on driving boats would probably not be a bad idea, if anything it requires more thought than a car, you have to take currents, water depth, wind, the tide, other boats coming at you from all directions, waves etc, into account, in a car traffic is coming from only 2 directions at most (unless you have some very broken traffic lights )
It would be a sensible idea to enforce a minimum level of training & safety equipment on people, but in all honesty it is unlikely to happen.
I would imagine most people on here are sensible, have done some training, wether official or just picking up guidence from others & friends, and do wear lifejackets, but it is the foolish minority who get into trouble that proper safety equipment and training could have prevented. The bigger problem is that they then put other peoples lives at risk when they need bailing out!

Dan

[Manos]

Hey Thanks Missus and have reciprocated. See if you going to reach 4 greeny blobs

Dan I couldn't agree more with you!! You earned a greeny from me whatever these greenies worth

[Hightower]

I'm one of these stupid people who just go out one day and buy a boat, plonk it in the water and zoom off to sea!!! Haven't got any formal RYA powerboating qualifications or navigational qualifications either.

But I'm not that stupid!!!!! I did for the first time ask someone to accompany me out into the busy world of boating. Watched and learnt to see how things are done and am still leaning now! Which is what we all never stop doing!

My point you ask.......Anybody can buy any type of boat and sail it off with no experience. If you're the inherent Idiot that causes accidents, chances are that you can pass the RYA examinations just as well as anyone else.

You don't need to pass any RYA courses on offer to be a safe responsible seaman/woman. If you have a sensible approach to life and care for the life's of others, you and only you can decide what level of seamanship you need.

My RIB is kitted out with all the flares, first aid kit, VHF, and wearing lifejacks is mandatory as a friend of mine found out two weeks ago. Everyone that is inexperienced, at some early stage of my voyages gets a quick tour of the engine controls and spare kill cord is located.

If an inexperienced person approached me now and asked about how you got into the world of boating, I would of course advise that they went on a RYA powerboat course as I don't know their level of competancy, I myself would like a PBII or III and will one day. But in not having these certificates, doesn't make me an unsafe person on the water.

Andy

[Daniel TD5]

i will agree with you hightower

i do not have any RYA courses to my name yet will get around to it soon

when i started for the first time i went out with phil davies he had passed his level RYA level two and he showed me the ropes and basic bits which i follow
each time i go out

what i am saying is if you are

one of these stupid people who just go out one day and buy a boat, plonk it in the water and zoom off to sea!!! Haven't got any formal RYA powerboating qualifications or navigational qualifications either.

the words stupid and zoom will be your down full as with my life of jetskiing
stupid people will allways be stupid and hurt others with the way they act in the water and regard for others around

dan

[tim griffin]

if you were to do it again, would you do a RYA course or would you follow the same course of action,its peoples right to choose wether they do a course or not, by having tuition the learning curve is not so steep and you gain confidence in your ability, after you have done a course you are still learning everytime you go to sea as everyone does, the whole point of having tuition in any subject is to increase our knowledge and become better at what we do , a sensible approach is always going to be applauded, how ever its the ones who don't give a toss that will increase the call for legislation, and it will come eventually ,as our masters in Brussels will dictate that we conform with the rest of Europe look at the debate on red deisel
regards tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Daniel TD5]

tim

if i was to do it again i would still get the boat first then training

i still need to do my training and will do so later on

i under stand training is a must and should realy be like a car on the road

dan

[Hightower]

Funny really, but when I got my RIB insured I told them I didn't have qualifications and very little experience on the water and payed the £160 which I thought quite resonable. I'm sure that if I said I had all the qualifications you could get, I wouldn't get an insurance quote for much less than that! Third party, theft, accident damage whilst on the trailer and in the water to include leg damage to 2K.

Andy

[Scary Des]

Originally Posted by -Dan-

You are forgetting one major thing here: Proportion.

99% of the population regularaly use a private car, in comparison, a minute ammount use boats recreationally (where the accidents we are talking about occour).
Whilst only a few people got killed in boats, only a few people use boats, and therefore it is evident that the boating death statistics are going to be significantly lower.

Not so!! there are 54 million car users in the UK (26million drivers) out of a population of 66 million and on average 3500 road deaths a year that makes it a 1:15428 chance of being killed
There are just over 1million members of water sport related clubs that means that there is a 1:40000 chance of being killed.
This 1 million does not include the 3 million fishermen some of whom go sea, the 1-2 million who cross the channel each year or the boat owners and their friends who are not club members.

The stats don’t support the perceived risk.

The reason there is so much interest in deaths and accidents at sea is that it is one of the Medias pet subjects, ever day 10 people die on our roads and 60 are seriously injured and this rarely makes the news, get one person drown and it is headline news.

Out of a given population a percentage are going to be idiots, no amount of training will make them safer and in some ways training might give them confidence to do something they are incapable of.

Reasonable people will know when they are not up to a task and will seek help or training. This is the current situation and I think, by and large, it works.
Any changes will result in legislation, cost and are still unlikely to make a difference. Licensing will not stop idiots at sea any more than it does on the roads

Each year the French shooting fraternity shoot about 20 of their own in hunting accident, the French minister responsible was asked by a UK journalist why he was not considering a ban. The ministers responded by saying ‘ if you go shooting you might get shot’ in other word if you take a risk this is one possible out come.

This seems remarkably balanced………………..for a Frenchman

Des