"I learn't about Ribbing from that"

[willk]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

Lessons:

Well told brucehawsker - not an easy post to make. That sounds like the day I always worry that I'll have, and I've been close! Your conclusions are bang on. Food for thought....

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

I guess.........................


...................... helms.

I think that should possibly be a stern lesson to the bigger boat skipper too if you were travelling in company-If you're travelling in company you don't bugger off and leave them when they drop back-specially when you don't hear from them.

[RichardB]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

You have to be totally self sufficient in any serious sea - and that means studying the chart carefully before leaving - relying on anyone else is not enough
A handheld backup radio is ESSENTIAL, not an expensive luxury
Food must be accessible
If electronics fail, even if you have done the trip before, the coastline at 4.30pm on a darkening October afternoon seems unbelievably hostile and alien
We learned loads, and gained a huge respect for the boat and how well it coped.

Some points well made - I fundamentally don't trust boat electronics availability. A few ideas:
- I'd also agree a handheld VHF is essential and they really are quite cheap now.
- I also carry a handheld gps chart plotter (and spare batteries!). OK, not cheap at several hundred quid but when you need it... If I had a certain second bad weather helm on the boat then laminated charts etc would be ok but I can't helm in bad weather and navigate on paper on my own in a rib! (I am in the process of training up backup everythings in the shape of my sons but they aren't quite there yet!)
- Top-tip... We've found a small lightweight ripstop nylon drybags ideal for immediate to hand items like food bars and hats/gloves. We have a couple that clip round the seat frames or console grab bar. Don't seem to get in the way or bounce around too much.
- Second top-tip. Gingernuts. Resistant to disintegration, better than chocolate in poor weather, don't melt in hot and even have anti sea-sickness qualities. Excellent motivators

[codprawn]

Looks like a freezer bag may have been of some use after all...........

If you don't use one for safety then at least use one to stop getting a knackered mobile phone - that way if the worse happens your phone may even work!!!

I always carry my trusty old Garmin GPS12 as well.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

I think that should possibly be a stern lesson to the bigger boat skipper too if you were travelling in company-If you're travelling in company you don't bugger off and leave them when they drop back-specially when you don't hear from them.

Hear hear!!!

[brucehawsker]

Interesting that in a high wind:

a) you get hoarse shouting to each other
b) using a phone inside a plastic bag degrades the sound quality simply too much to be of any use

I tried to turn the nose of the boat to land so the wind was behind our bodies to make it easier for my son to hear the phone, but then we were in danger if getting awave over the transom - not nice!

That was why we took the phone out.

"Ripstop nylon drybag" - please explain.

"Gingernuts" - brilliant wheeze.

"If you're travelling in company you don't bugger off and leave them when they drop back-specially when you don't hear from them."

This is an easy criticism. However, I was thinking what I would do if it were me with two 4.8 metre ribs which I was supposed to be looking after. If the weather became really horrid (which it was) and I lost one of them what would I do? I think the message has to be not to criticise the "nanny" boat, but to recognise that however well organised an expedition is - and it is an expedition if you go out in a small boat in rough conditions - you may through no fault of the organisers or the lead larger boat become isolated. Thus you have to plan to survive on your own. That means your own course planning, your own safety kit, your own contingency planning.

Paradoxically, it may have been even more unpleasant in a large diesel onboard Scorpion than a 6.5M Solent given the short fetch between the big waves....

[brucehawsker]

Furthermore, I think it was because of my poor passage planning that we got into such rough deas. We were too far offshore going round a headland where, if I had my time again, having studied the charts and an excellent little book on the Dorset Coast, I would have been much closer inland. But when you are trying to chase a support boat who you can occasionally see in the distance, you are inevitably tempted (as we did) to "cut the corner".

[nikster]

Bruce, excellent notes there - bottom line is for an expedition unless you are in comms in sight and the weather was like it was you all stay together and within sight of ech other - if its an expedition the lead boat / safety boat makes the call based on the conditions and never ever puts people in danger -

Passage planning is absolutley critical however mundane it seems and my little course will heavily concentrate on simple techniques that even if the weather is horrendous where you cant take your eyes off the sea - you will still have an alternative and safe haven option...but more importantly you dont need any maps or paper!!

[tinker]

Another Stuffing?

[PeterM]

As a follow on from this I think I'll move my handhled to aplace where I can always get it & also the back up GPS ( somethimes this goes inside my jacket if its really rough & if I think about it the handheld has done the same) .

One thing I have noticed in bad weather is how much the rain can stop you seeing things. Rain at 25mph , even with a 'slow' boat speed of 10mph made it impossible to see. I had to resort to the skiing goggles for me & a mate one time so we coudl just see the waves , but they are tinted so again not much use when its getting dark etc . I will be getting clear ones soon !

And can echo the not being able to hear each other over the wind noise - the radio was just useless at that point & its well buried down the console on the shearwater ! I couldn't even hear the CD !

[willk]

Originally Posted by brucehawsker

"Ripstop nylon drybag" - please explain.

I think they mean these:
http://www.facewest.co.uk/Exped-Waterproof-Bags.html
I use them, they work.

[K&S]

Nickster, i trust i'm missunderstanding your posts but i do feel i have at least a moral obligation to ask you for your response to coments you have made which i find difficult to understand.

If i have missunderstood please accept my apologise and feel free to reply, it may also serve to drum up business?.....

Originally Posted by nikster

-

Passage planning is absolutley critical however mundane it seems and my little course will heavily concentrate on simple techniques that even if the weather is horrendous where you cant take your eyes off the sea - you will still have an alternative and safe haven option...but more importantly you dont need any maps or paper!!

Are you seriously recomending going to sea with no charts???


From another thread
http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21548

ok - lets look at this in the real light of day - fareham creek, no chop, good weather, excellent visibility..... the chances and historical data shows you have more chance of winning the lottery than coming a cropper in a rib in fareham creek in good weather......

i bet you a pound a pinch of sh$t that the reason the guy did not go out of the harbour was because he had young kids on board and a new born.....so his decision to go for a pootle up fareham creek, was a good one based on the passengers he had on board...

lets not go over the top - when you clearly have no knowledge of the skipper, his abilities, his passengers abilities or the risk involved in such a bland low risk outing - then i dont think it is appropriate to lambast someone...based on what you see in some pictures......

no doubt you file a passage plan, make everyone wear drysuits, and have epirbs fitted to everyone, and make endless calls on 16 just to make sure you dont get out of radio range............

keep it real......lets no lose the fun of what the ribs are meant to bring.....
most skippers are fairly good at assesing the risk based on the conditions and route to be taken....


We had an incident on the Clyde just not so long ago, where a boat sank in what i would describe as great boating conditions with plenty of other boats in the area.
I'm pretty dam sure all onboard were greatefull they wore lifejackets!

Do you not personaly have good reason to advocate the use of suitable flotation nickster?

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...ng_titanic.php

Interestingly they also had to use VHF despite the Clyde being the busiest its been for a long time to my knowledge.



You used demo boats presumably to provide demonstrations to the public ( forgive me if i have misunderstood the use of 'demo boats' but anyway in my opinion should have been equiped at least with hand held VHF surely??

Not carrying a knife on a boat - If i forget my knife i can think of 2 other tools on my boat which can be used to cut ropes. Should only the helmsman be carrying a knife???



Nickster, my reasons for asking is not for any comercial gain or defimation, hell i'm in the wrong part of the country to benefit. I'ts just i can't get my head around someone with your listed qualifications as seriously meaning some of these posts.

Of course you always have the right to reply and i hope it is enough to give potential customers on your course a little bit more confidence.


JK if you deem this post out of order in anyway please remove as you see fit

[nikster]

Dear K&S

Are you seriously recomending going to sea with no charts???

Dont think i said that - and certainly never would or want to..........however if you read the post correctly Bruce was saying and others commented on how difficult it is when the chips are down to start faffing around with charts, when you have lost all comms, lost the gps, and are at your maximum ability keeping the boat upright and the crew in the boat.

It is this scenario - ie knowlingly entering adverse weather that you passage plan prior to departure and put it in a format and place that is always within eyesight and does not need a chart to be unfolded or looked at when the chips are down - all charts are onboard all planning done prior to departure, all crew briefed on scenarios, all crew aware of alternates!


From another thread
http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21548

ok - lets look at this in the real light of day - fareham creek, no chop, good weather, excellent visibility..... the chances and historical data shows you have more chance of winning the lottery than coming a cropper in a rib in fareham creek in good weather......

i bet you a pound a pinch of sh$t that the reason the guy did not go out of the harbour was because he had young kids on board and a new born.....so his decision to go for a pootle up fareham creek, was a good one based on the passengers he had on board...

lets not go over the top - when you clearly have no knowledge of the skipper, his abilities, his passengers abilities or the risk involved in such a bland low risk outing - then i dont think it is appropriate to lambast someone...based on what you see in some pictures......

no doubt you file a passage plan, make everyone wear drysuits, and have epirbs fitted to everyone, and make endless calls on 16 just to make sure you dont get out of radio range............

keep it real......lets no lose the fun of what the ribs are meant to bring.....
most skippers are fairly good at assesing the risk based on the conditions and route to be taken....


We had an incident on the Clyde just not so long ago, where a boat sank in what i would describe as great boating conditions with plenty of other boats in the area.
I'm pretty dam sure all onboard were greatefull they wore lifejackets!

Do you not personaly have good reason to advocate the use of suitable flotation nickster?

If you want us to turn into a nanny state and making it compulsory then lets all start wearing lifejackets when we have a bath as we all know you can drown in a puddle.........

Lets look at the real picture...... a guys takes some friends out in a rib in fareham creek, not on the plane.......someone takes a picture and posts how irresponsible it is to let passengers and especially a young child who is held by an adult out on the boat.....

Well im sorry to dissapoint you but based on that exact picture and exact remark for that thread i dont see what the problem is..... if anyone still has the ebay pictures it would be handy to put them up - but as for saying there was no lifejackets on board is unfounded, as for saying he was an idiot is unfounded, and slightly petty in my mind....

If the picture was of the rib doing 30kts past no mans land fort then i would be the first to offer my thoughts of irresponsibility - but most of us have operated a rib / speedboat or some other vessel at some point without a lifejacket on.......but we all make dynamic risk assesments to try and minimise and avoid risk - sorry you feel it's already compulsory - i dont share your view......... i dont see how this makes me a cowboy or someone that tows the line just because someone finds a photo, makes an ill informed judgement then pontificates about the safety considerations...???

You used demo boats presumably to provide demonstrations to the public ( forgive me if i have misunderstood the use of 'demo boats' but anyway in my opinion should have been equiped at least with hand held VHF surely??

Demo boats 15 years ago are not what they are today - and a hand held VHF would have been as much use a tits on a fish in Whitby as they were not waterproof!!!!!!!!!

Not carrying a knife on a boat - If i forget my knife i can think of 2 other tools on my boat which can be used to cut ropes. Should only the helmsman be carrying a knife???

When a pot line is wrapped around the prop and bound tight up against the cav plate where you cannot move it, it is falling darkness, and all you have are keys, a screwdriver, an adjustable and a moaning woman - i think you will find that a stanley blade or swiss army knife is the optimum tool.........


Nickster, my reasons for asking is not for any comercial gain or defimation, hell i'm in the wrong part of the country to benefit. I'ts just i can't get my head around someone with your listed qualifications as seriously meaning some of these posts.

Of course you always have the right to reply and i hope it is enough to give potential customers on your course a little bit more confidence.


Clearly im not as adept as you for considerate safety or untangling pots on the go or carrying the right equipment 15 years ago when i was 23 and still had not matured into the salty old sea dog you must be????

[K&S]

Ok Nickster


Surely pilotage plans and simplifying them can be learn't on an RYA course and not unique to your course - I have seen me scribble plans on the console before now so i dont have to refer to paper notes and charts. I trust that was a mistake in my interpritation of the statement.




I still disagree with you on the lifejacket issue. I am of the opinion there are times when a bouyancy aid is apropriate and there are times when a lifejacket are better but to wear nothing regardless of the percieved risk is asking for trouble - I'm sure the passengers of the Titanic were confident they would come to no harm.....

I'm just surprised an Instructor would condone not wearing them



As for the VHF fair enough regarding the equipment, i cant honestly say i remember what was available then.


Clearly im not as adept as you for considerate safety or untangling pots on the go or carrying the right equipment 15 years ago when i was 23 and still had not matured into the salty old sea dog you must be????

Nickster, i am not without fault and allways learning but i do teach pupils at every level the importance of suitable flotation. 15 years ago i did carry tools for such tasks as i had a bad habbit of running over ski lines - im getting better now .......

I will let it rest now....

[nikster]

Surely pilotage plans and simplifying them can be learn't on an RYA course and not unique to your course - I have seen me scribble plans on the console before now so i dont have to refer to paper notes and charts. I trust that was a mistake in my interpritation of the statement.

Yes i think it was

I still disagree with you on the lifejacket issue. I am of the opinion there are times when a bouyancy aid is apropriate and there are times when a lifejacket are better but to wear nothing regardless of the percieved risk is asking for trouble - I'm sure the passengers of the Titanic were confident they would come to no harm.....

I'm just surprised an Instructor would condone not wearing them

Here you go again!! Who said I was condoning not wearing them?? There is bugger all we can do about priviate individuals taking people out on their boat, other than advise them of the risk of not have flotation aids / lifejackets available - We are not yet in a situation where it is compulasory to wear them, and when I load 160 people on our ferry in Poole Harbour we do not make them put lifejackets on so are you saying the same for them????

You are taking both the context of the thread and your percieved view of the sportsboat world way too far!! and more importantly you are making assumptions and statements - which are wrong and innapropriate.

Was the rib capable of sinking in Fareham Creek faster than they could have run it aground into the banks or pulled lifejackets on that may have been in the boat??? Somehow i think not.....! - therefore was the guy an idiot = no

Keeping a sense of reality and doing our best to make people understand the importance of life jackets and the reasons for wearing is one thing.....

Making it compulsory and calling all those idiots who do not wear them is another.

You go on about the Titanic - so are you saying that every passenger and crewman on any size of ship including liners should wear lifejackets at all times from leaving the berth including sleeping???

Its all about managing the risk...!! That is what should be compulsory...having the kit available, to hand and knowing when to don it and how to use it. It works for all sizes of boats from Ribs to Merchant Ships

As for the VHF fair enough regarding the equipment, i cant honestly say i remember what was available then.


Clearly im not as adept as you for considerate safety or untangling pots on the go or carrying the right equipment 15 years ago when i was 23 and still had not matured into the salty old sea dog you must be????

Nickster, i am not without fault and allways learning but i do teach pupils at every level the importance of suitable flotation.

Which i think you find we all do...!

15 years ago i did carry tools for such tasks as i had a bad habbit of running over ski lines - im getting better now .......

And again if you reread the statement i think you will find i had lifted to tools from the boat to do a home job and had forgotten to put them back on for that trip!

I will let it rest now.... [/quote]

[Cookee]

Originally Posted by tinker

Another Stuffing?

It certainly was, although it was in an organised and sanctioned race with the proper safety procedures in place, so the poor crew that stuffed it received the proper attention immediately. This would obviously not be the case if you were on your own!

[PeterM]

Given the varying tales of accident/ incident / near miss in some of these posts ( and moving on from the lifejacket/ planning issue - I can see both points , but admit I have not always worn one based on my 'risk assesment' and not always completed one) can anyone give brief explanation of when an incident needs reporting to the MAIB, or when an accident needs reporting.

I'm aware of the AAIB rules on which is which & what needs reporting , but if I follow the same logic , then alot of the tales in this thread 'should' ( maybe ? ) have been reported.

In no way do I think that everything should get back to the MAIB, just after some guidance as to what the rules are !

Any ideas ?

[nikster]

From the MAIB site:

Although there is no requirement to report hazardous incidents, the MAIB strongly urges any person to do so voluntarily, since useful lessons can always be learned.

Accidents involving or occurring on board -
(a) a pleasure vessel
(b) a recreational craft hired on a bareboat basis
(c) any other craft or boat, other than one carrying passengers, which is in commercial use in a
harbour or on an inland waterway and is less than 8m in length
do not need to be reported to the MAIB, unless the accident involves

i. explosion
ii. fire
iii. death
iv. major injury
v. capsize of a power-driven craft or boat, or

vi. pollution causing significant harm to the environment

[PeterM]

Cheers - I reckon unless I seriously screw things up I will be OK in not telling the MAIB anything ! ( unlike the AAIB who are buggers for this stuff !)

[nikster]

tell me about, chirp, MOR, discretion reports, never ending bloody paperwork trail...