IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

[Pete7]

Is this a real problem for leisure users?

White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.

We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?

Pete

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Is this a real problem for leisure users?



White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.



We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?



Pete

I hadn’t realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. I’d assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.

[Sutty]

Hi Pete

You seem rather keen to get the best deal for yourself, going to negotiate to save about £10 so by implication you see it as a problem

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Sutty

Hi Pete

You seem rather keen to get the best deal for yourself, going to negotiate to save about £10 so by implication you see it as a problem

No, not true. We could have managed quite happily without the 40L but he was fuelling the motorboat moored in front so no real problem for him with the long hoses. If we had needed the diesel we would have probably paid full wack for the convenience. Whilst there is a diesel pontoon in Weymouth manning by the attendant is sporadic at best. In fact only saw him once in the week.

I get there may be a problem in places like Scottish isles. I like the idea that the petrol commercial users have of claiming back by filling in a SO50 form I think. Then supply everyone with white, so no problem with visitors to the UK from the EU or UK boats visiting the EU.

Pete

[ShinyShoe]

40litres - not a big deal. You can transport in cans if you need to. So garage white versus 60:40 (probay not actually legal currently on a lot of ribs) will not be a massive issue...

But that assumes you are using 40litres. If you are doing 150mile trips you might be using 150 - 200 litres... That's a lot of cans and £28 price difference every fill up will stack up... And I don't think the price on the west coast is so cheap for white road!

I

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Is this a real problem for leisure users?

Pete, it's not the cost, it's the availability. If there is no white for sale dockside it will be illegal to go boating for a leisure user if they cannot source white fuel elsewhere. For small vessel local users there may not be too much inconvenience but for sizeable vessels there surely will be. Many diesel vessels will take 500 lts plus, some considerably more than that. That's a lot of journeys with a 5lt container which is the maximum at many garages.

You've not quite got your head around the problem for remote, or even just northern areas. For example, there is one marina in the whole of the Firth of Fourth, they supply to leisure and commercial customers, the sales to commercial far outweigh leisure, what's the insentive for them to invest in a white system too, not much. Let's presume the do, so if I'm going north I need to go 20miles west first to fuel up then the next marina is 140 miles north. It too supplies primarily commercial customers. If they choose not to go white, that's the end of the journey unless I go illegally. The next marina with fuel is another 120 miles with a similar sales base to the others. What's the odds there..who knows?

It could very easily be the end to legal boating for sizable power boats in more remote areas.

There's also a fair number of travellers from the Scandinavian countries make landfall on the east coast of Scotland, after 300 miles across the north sea they're going to need a fuel stop. No white! They need to buy illegally, that's gonna make them fully relaxed during their holliday in a foreign country...not. In the long term it will be discouraging to travellers so also work against the tourist trade.

There's lots of knock-on implications for both leisure and commercial fuel users. All just because of the colour of the diesel fuel. Is it only in the EU that such trivial stupidity is the norm? Grrr...

[Tim M]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Is this a real problem for leisure users?

White in the local Shell garage is about £1.26 and red in Cowes £1.12, hardly a huge difference.

We managed to fuel up last week in Weymouth when the man with a bowser trailer turned up to fuel a gin palace. So a quick chat and we also took 40L at 75p litre for cash. He was worried about his bis, but for leisure users?

Pete

Not a particularly fair comparison Pete - a massive chain compared to a single independent outlet. The same deal explains how they can justify £1.45 a litre for petrol. Using the same rational, surely white on the pontoon is going to start costing a similar price to petrol (if not more??) - in which case you're looking at a significant increase. Maybe easy to swallow for small quantities, but when you're buying thousands of litres at a time thats going to hurt quite a bit!

[Pete7]

Well, whether we like it or not, there are some big changes coming our way.

Sell big mobos and buy little humber 5.5m ribs will petrol outboards might be a good idea. Or, for Tim, moving to Scotland with a bowser and a landie could be an interesting bis opportunity.

Pete

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Pete7

buy little humber 5.5m ribs will petrol outboards might be a good idea.

While that will be a valid choice for some. For Scotland anyone wanting to make serious passage in a powerboat can't fuel up with white derv or normal unleaded at sufficiently common intervals to make serious passages. The choice of diesel in Scotland isn't purely about economy .. its about being the only thing available dockside at all.

This will affect RIBs but also MOBO owners. It also affects WAFIs... Some seem to use 20 litres a year and will cope just fine, others seem to carry 100L+ at a time and again will have issues transporting from a petrol station. And that even assumes there is a petrol station in a vaguely sensible location.

A bowser coming in, shared between multiple owners, is an option for a regular home port. But full of headaches. Not least of which may be harbour masters who want a ton of risk assessments, and needing multiple owners to all want fuel at the same time to make it worth while.

The only hope I can see would be if those 'yacht' venues that have steered away from fuel because they can't charge enough to cover the costs realise there is no competition and so do provide white.

No idea what the demand would be to know how likely it is to make business sense...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Pete, it's not the cost, it's the availability.

supply and demand though - currently zero demand. How long will it take to adjust is the issue? perhaps pete's business opportunity is not crazy...

You've not quite got your head around the problem for remote, or even just northern areas. For example, there is one marina in the whole of the Firth of Fourth, they supply to leisure and commercial customers, the sales to commercial far outweigh leisure, what's the insentive for them to invest in a white system too, not much.

I don't know - they must sell loads to a small number of big users (who could actually get it anywhere a tanker can come alongside - so will be price sensitive). On the other hand by number of customers the yachties must be much higher (each buying much less), but are customers who expect a certain level of service and are paying handsomely for a marina with such comforts

Let's presume the do, so if I'm going north I need to go 20miles west first to fuel up

don't you have to do that anyway? or fill her on the trailer

then the next marina is 140 miles north. It too supplies primarily commercial customers. If they choose not to go white, that's the end of the journey unless I go illegally. The next marina with fuel is another 120 miles with a similar sales base to the others. What's the odds there..who knows?

it will be like petrol boats - you'll have to plan your trip, and think ahead.

It could very easily be the end to legal boating for sizable power boats in more remote areas.

maybe - but how many leisure users with sizable power boats actually exist? I always assumed most big powerboats were commercial or pretending to the tax man to be commercial anyway...

I'm sure there is a way for you to keep using red if you code, and invoice yourself for each trip.

There's also a fair number of travellers from the Scandinavian countries make landfall on the east coast of Scotland, after 300 miles across the north sea they're going to need a fuel stop. No white!

how do they get on at the moment? Presumably currently they fuel up when here, contaminate their tanks with red and risk going back to a country where red in a leisure boat = penalty. Might a mid term future where that problem is solved actually help?

. All just because of the colour of the diesel fuel. Is it only in the EU that such trivial stupidity is the norm? Grrr...

fuel marking for duty is used all over the world. Customs officials anywhere in the world can be officious in my experience. We don't have any left so we have become complacent. If we end up with borders again, we'll probably outsource it to G4S / Capita etc, and make a total hash of it whilst causing huge inconvenience!

I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.

so if I understand it, the reality of this is - a large percentage of intelligence led sampling, along with random stops in "hot spots", some random testing when other stuff is getting checked (I can't see a marine equivalent) and a tiny amount of truly random stops for truly random people. Where people will get stopped is in other countries who actively police their waters - currently some of those people are already facing problems.

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I hadn’t realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. I’d assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.

you forgot they are only claiming 40% of their fuel is burned for heating...

Originally Posted by beamishken

I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.

you don't need to switch "off"-road vehicles to white - just all marine use... theres a series of hoops to jump through to be a commercial vessel which would make it much harder to abuse than vague road type use. I'm sure some dodgy fishermen would be running their landy on marine white and claiming it back. In rural parts, some are probably running it on red anyway!

[lakelandterrier]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I hadn’t realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. I’d assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.

Hi PD,
Please let md have number for your local farmer, we use 000's of litres of red derv in our shunters and reefers every week and are paying well above 60ppl for bulk tanker delivieries!

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Poly

supply and demand though - currently zero demand. How long will it take to adjust is the issue? perhaps pete's business opportunity is not crazy...

Yes where there is yachties headed, and particularly yachties who can choose between two marinas - if one starts offering white and the other nothing... the one with fuel will become preferred. You'll sell £20 of diesel which is nothing to excite the accountants. But you'll also sell an overnight berth, electricity, showers, if you own a restaurant the WAFI family of 4 likely want somewhere to eat. By making your marina more attractive then the alternative you may well be getting a visitor in who is spending > £100.

And if you are a WAFI or Mobo owner looking for a 365 days a year marina to park up in, in exchange for £2-4k... would you pick the one with fuel or the one without?

Diesel is a lot easier / safer to have in tanks above ground etc. Mobile tanks are possible. SO I doubt it will help the majority of rib owners!

so if I understand it, the reality of this is - a large percentage of intelligence led sampling, along with random stops in "hot spots", some random testing when other stuff is getting checked (I can't see a marine equivalent) and a tiny amount of truly random stops for truly random people.

The marine equivalent is Border Force boarding your boat. Almost unheard of in Sturgeon Country - but does happen on the South Coast. You'll never know how much of that is 'intelligence' / profiling but there are plenty of WAFIs who are pretty certain they did nothing wrong / to attract attention.

There will be a Border Force Patrol boat somewhere other than the channel or people would just completely avoid the channel... ...but if stopped - its probably like being stopped by the police. Be polite, helpful, and chances are they wont do more than have a cursory glance over the car. Certainly when stopped last year for an Christmas Breath Test in the car they did me in less than a minute. The white van in front was there well before I was stopped, was still there when I left, having its tank dipped, tread depth measured etc. That may have been because the vehicle fitted a profile for more attention, or the driver might have given them jip, or maybe he blew over.

If you start running day trips from Dover to Calias to Dover in your Diesel RIB for friends you picked up on the internet 2 days before hand on a "costs sharing basis"... ...expect your tanks to be dipped.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

... Certainly when stopped last year for an Christmas Breath Test in the car they did me in less than a minute. The white van in front was there well before I was stopped, was still there when I left, having its tank dipped, tread depth measured etc. That may have been because the vehicle fitted a profile for more attention, or the driver might have given them jip, or maybe he blew over.

Perhaps he pointed out he wasn't required to give a specimen of breath unless he had been involved in an accident, committed a traffic offence, or had given the officers reason to suspect he was intoxicated.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I hadn’t realised the price difference was so low. I buy red off the local farmer for 60p/litre. I’d assumed the diesel boys would be paying similar.

I just bought 1200ltrs for 57p/ ltr yesterday

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I just bought 1200ltrs for 57p/ ltr yesterday

That’s more like what I expected.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I just bought 1200ltrs for 57p/ ltr yesterday

Was that full price or commercial price?

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by Poly

Perhaps he pointed out he wasn't required to give a specimen of breath unless he had been involved in an accident, committed a traffic offence, or had given the officers reason to suspect he was intoxicated.

Perhaps.

In my world... That refusal... Just counted as reason to suspect

The same would apply if border force ask to board and are asked for their legal basis for doing so... If you have done nowt wrong... Be nice and it ends nicely.

Perhaps experience tells them a white unlabelled transit van it more likely to have defects and dodgy fuel than a 3year 3month old car...

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Was that full price or commercial price?

Thats the proper price for agricultural/marine fuel the full price of red for marine leisure craft is the same as road fuel & likely more given the marinas mark up.
To be honest anyone currently running a boat on full priced red wants their head examined no one knows or cares where the fuel comes from so whats the point in paying the duty on it?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Thats the proper price for agricultural/marine fuel the full price of red for marine leisure craft is the same as road fuel & likely more given the marinas mark up.

No it's not. Pleasure craft are allowed to state the percentage taxed at the full rate for propulsion and the percentage taxed at the heating oil rate (5%). Hence 60/40% split is popular as HMRC stated they wouldn't check records for anyone claiming 60/40. Those claiming other more lucrative rates or even 100% heating rate may be asked to prove it.

Originally Posted by beamishken

To be honest anyone currently running a boat on full priced red wants their head examined no one knows or cares where the fuel comes from so whats the point in paying the duty on it?

Well, when I had a diesel rib it came down to time / availability /cost / convenience.

Lugging 20L cans to the local red supplier in the car, then down to the boat just to go out for a few hours soon looses its attraction and a spill makes you stink. Alternatively nip round to the local marina and use the automated 24hr pump.

With the yacht we use about 90L a year so not really worth worrying about and saves messing with cans and spills. Keeping the receipt meant trips to France weren't a problem as it could be shown to be 60/40 split between propulsion and heating, therefore tax paid and legal, until the recent EU court ruling.

If white was available as Poly suggests through demand then EU boats may increasingly make the crossing.

This whole red thing has been under threat for nearly 20 years. HMRC have done a marvelous of stalling, fudging and pontificating to the EU for the benefit of boaters. Guess the time is up unless you want to risk being stopped with red, heating oil or even worse home brew chippie oil . Also a bit difficult to justify when the district nurse has to pay full wack on a forecourt to do her rounds whist big go faster gin palace is allowed a tax break to charge across the Solent to Yarmouth for lunch.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Also a bit difficult to justify when the district nurse has to pay full wack on a forecourt to do her rounds whist big go faster gin palace is allowed a tax break to charge across the Solent to Yarmouth for lunch.

No red in the tank but plenty under the beds it appears...