IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Making everyone else run on white and reclaim the duty is a massive undertaking & open to far greater fraud that what could possibly go on with the odd boater who fills up with red diesel. I think the level of tax evasion from people running red instead of white will depend largely what region you boat in and the ready availability of white fuel

do you think there is much fraud going on with petrol being used at sea commercially reclaimed wrongly?

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Poly

do you think there is much fraud going on with petrol being used at sea commercially reclaimed wrongly?

Do you think there are many people actually claiming duty back for petrol compared to the number who would be claiming for diesel? Also do you expect the monetary value of the reclaimed duty on petrol to be anywhere near the value of diesel ?

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Making everyone else run on white and reclaim the duty is a massive undertaking & open to far greater fraud that what could possibly go on with the odd boater who fills up with red diesel. I think the level of tax evasion from people running red instead of white will depend largely what region you boat in and the ready availability of white fuel

You'll have to explain to me how that would be the case.

If everyone paid duty up front, to do someone a favour by giving them untaxed fuel one would have to sell it cheaply to them then reclaim the duty and vat from HMRC! How likely and convenient is that. Far less than at present I would have thought.

It would put a financial load on the commercial sector and a little additional accounting initially.

For the small fuel user, a pot boat say, it might be inconvenient but fuel use is small so maybe not too great a load. For the big boys, North Sea supply vessels etc, it could be duty free fuel policed by the fuel suppliers. For the big fishing vessels similarly. For the smaller fishing boats who work estuaries and coastal waters and who use a fair amount of fuel it would be an upfront substantial financial outlay. Possibly a negotiated arrangement for them. My guess is that this is the group most likely to 'leak' fuel out of the system presently so it might be no bad thing for HMRC. Similarly, for the farming and construction sector.

It would provide fuel all around the UK, there would be no issues going to other countries and no issue for visitors to this country.

Possibly little need for vehicle checking though I guess red fuel could be imported illegally from outside the UK.

Live aboard vessels could either claim back duty/vat for their heating fuel or possibly declare to the supplier for it's use as they do at present. Though most modern heating systems use kerosene.

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Possibly little need for vehicle checking though I guess red fuel could be imported illegally from outside the UK.

If you are making tractors etc run white and claim back, what stops Farmer Jones filling up his Land rover and running it on the road but claiming all his white went in the tractor and combine?

Currently he risks being stopped and dipped.

If he can't be detected, what stops him filling Mrs Jones Micra, or the vicar's range rover...?

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If you are making tractors etc run white and claim back, what stops Farmer Jones filling up his Land rover and running it on the road but claiming all his white went in the tractor and combine?

Currently he risks being stopped and dipped.

If he can't be detected, what stops him filling Mrs Jones Micra, or the vicar's range rover...?

Well I haven't actually worked out all the fine details of the implementation but I'm sure with a bit of creativity that could be tied down. How about a device which monitors engine fuel use, kinda like a tachograph. Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Well I haven't actually worked out all the fine details of the implementation but I'm sure with a bit of creativity that could be tied down. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Dear Mr Walker,

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Please come to number 10 sometime this week so we can have a chat about the benefits of being a minister, and what colour car your would like.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I think the level of tax evasion from people running red instead of white will depend largely what region you boat in and the ready availability of white fuel

Actually I think it could be less. charter fishing boat fills up and goes out for 3 days in a week. Quarterly the owner claims back the extra duty paid for on white diesel not by receiving money but by offsetting this credit against VAT or his own income tax due which he also has to pay. So HMRC can see the boat has been working, the level of income it generated and the offset for the fuel duty reclaimed. This is how VAT works in many ways.

No income declared, why the request for a refund of duty then? HMRC will quickly know how much a boat will earn and the amount of fuel likely to be used so larger amounts attract attention, just as any small business does at the moment. A hairdresser declaring low over heads as its a cash business will draw attention to compared to a similar legit business nearby.

Pete

[craig_c]

As they say in the big house

"speak now or forever hold your peace"

I did some rough figures

Commercial Diesel is 74p x 300l = £222
Marina Diesel is £1.14 (60/40) = £342
Tescos is £1.319 = £395.70

The £200 increase is a bit over inflated for us yes, but I am sure nobody will read my email never mind calculate GPH, passage planning, sea states and the time the tide turns at.

If I go to Tesco's I need 12 drums

I will be pissed off lugging 12 drums into my car
The Mrs will be pissed off because the bread smells and tastes of diesel
The doctor will be pissed off I am wasting his time
and my work will be pissed off I have put in a sicky with a bad back

Also, what's Johnny Law going to say when I am driving around Greenock with 12 drums of pristine white diesel in the back of the car....

Anybody that wants to pay more for diesel please raise your hand.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by craig_c

....

If I go to Tesco's I need 12 drums

I will be pissed off lugging 12 drums into my car
The Mrs will be pissed off because the bread smells and tastes of diesel
The doctor will be pissed off I am wasting his time
and my work will be pissed off I have put in a sicky with a bad back

Also, what's Johnny Law going to say when I am driving around Greenock with 12 drums of pristine white diesel in the back of the car....

Seems all valid reasons to me, why don't you tell that to HMRC?

[breezeblock]

Originally Posted by craig_c

As they say in the big house

"speak now or forever hold your peace"

I did some rough figures

Commercial Diesel is 74p x 300l = £222
Marina Diesel is £1.14 (60/40) = £342
Tescos is £1.319 = £395.70

The £200 increase is a bit over inflated for us yes, but I am sure nobody will read my email never mind calculate GPH, passage planning, sea states and the time the tide turns at.

If I go to Tesco's I need 12 drums

I will be pissed off lugging 12 drums into my car
The Mrs will be pissed off because the bread smells and tastes of diesel
The doctor will be pissed off I am wasting his time
and my work will be pissed off I have put in a sicky with a bad back

Also, what's Johnny Law going to say when I am driving around Greenock with 12 drums of pristine white diesel in the back of the car....

Anybody that wants to pay more for diesel please raise your hand.

will a yanmar sterndrive last long enough to burn 12 drums of diesel

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by breezeblock

will a yanmar sterndrive last long enough to burn 12 drums of diesel

Seeing as Craig has a yamaha I doubt he knows or cares about a yanmar drive!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Seems all valid reasons to me, why don't you tell that to HMRC?

If Craig did, then I think that would back fire spectacularly.

If I was a Civil Servant in HMRC I would look a the figures and and surmise that the "commercial" price doesn't included the propulsion tax that is supposed to be applied, whilst the marina 60/40 price does. Therefore tax avoidance and a good reason to press ahead with change.

The argument for retaining red needs to be centered around availability and the risk to the environment with people filling boats by other methods rather than at a controlled fuel point (marina or commercial tanker).

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If Craig did, then I think that would back fire spectacularly.

If I was a Civil Servant in HMRC I would look a the figures and and surmise that the "commercial" price doesn't included the propulsion tax that is supposed to be applied, whilst the marina 60/40 price does. Therefore tax avoidance and a good reason to press ahead with change.

The argument for retaining red needs to be centered around availability and the risk to the environment with people filling boats by other methods rather than at a controlled fuel point (marina or commercial tanker).

I think you missed the bit I quoted, Pete.

[craig_c]

Think I'll run it on hydraulic oil from now on...

that's a joke btw.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by craig_c

Think I'll run it on hydraulic oil from now on...

that's a joke btw.

Hehe, not such a bad idea....years ago I bought an old JCB and a pal who has a garage said he had a 45gal drum of white diesel I could have. I took it and the JCB did a lot of hard work, finally the diesel ran out and I bought pump diesel, well, that JCB seemed seriously down on power. After a bit of investigation it turned out that the drum of diesel was actually hydraulic oil...I had always wondered why it was a kinda blueish colour when it poured.

[beamishken]

In the grand scheme of things is paying the duty on the fuel realy going to stop folk using their boats
We probably use 2k worth of diesel per year in a boat that does 1.5mpg so fuel cost for us may double. So fuel costs 4k per year running white, its still only a relatively small proportion of the overall running cost of a reasonable sized boat(37ft)
5k for marina fees
2k for servicing
300 insurance
6 -700 Antifoul and polish
5k+ pa depreciation maybe more
500 Replacing time expired & worn out gear
Plus other stuff I've probably forgotten about
So the boat probably costs to stand still close on 15k.
Is an extra 2k in fuel realy going to stop me using the boat?
I think most owners will be of the opinion yes it hurts but boat ownership isn't cheap and never will be.
The biggest problem I can see is the possible none availability in certain areas. Its already a problem for petrol boats in large parts of the uk. Hopefully they find a solution that is workable
I do my own maintenance so personal costs are lower but probably representative of typical costs

[willk]

Originally Posted by beamishken

Plus other stuff I've probably forgotten about

For sure!