IMPORTANT Diesel Tax changes for boaters!

[craig_c]

This is really important for all Diesel boaters, Brexit or not we are still in the EU and this may go ahead.

This new law basically means there will be no red diesel for pleasure boaters

"The government intends to abolish the scheme introduced in 2008 that allowed users of diesel powered private pleasure craft (e.g. yachts, canal boats and motorboats"

" It intends to remove the right of operators of such craft to use red diesel for propulsion and mandate the use of white diesel. Users will be allowed to continue to use red diesel for on-board non-propulsion use where they have a separate fuel tank for this purpose."

Please share this and reply to the below email address

Link: https://bit.ly/2KKBzVK (link to the HMRC document)

If this is to happen it will have big consequences on the price of our fuel.

Please send any comments to the email address that is provided below.

The deadline for this is 9th September 2019

Email address: gary.satchell@hmrc.gov.uk

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by craig_c

The deadline for this is 9th September 2019

Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October. If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world [emoji6]

[Last Tango]

Yep.

UK lost it's appeal to retain the derogation at the European court. Might be a way out of it after Brexit but at the minute their hands are tied.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October.

I think Craig's point:

This is really important for all Diesel boaters, Brexit or not we are still in the EU and this may go ahead.

is:

- if somehow Brexit doesn't happen this is clearly likely to be implemented
- if Brexit happens with "a deal" the term of that deal are likely to impact this sort of thing (and even if not see next point)
- if Brexit happens with no deal, then any UK diesel boater who travels to mainland Europe or Ireland is going to face the "marked diesel headache".

OK - now that we've just about avoided politics.

If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world [emoji6]

I have to say I think that will be the response most petrol boat owners will have. Many leisure rib users have been dodging tax on diesel since the rules changed - either that or there are some very inefficient eberspachers in use! The problem is not that you would have to pay "fair" tax, but that there is no dockside infrastructure for white diesel in place. That problem will be most pronounced in remote areas; I can imagine all the big yacht marinas switching to white. It will be a PITA for the handful of people who bought a diesel rib to cruise the west coast because dockside diesel is widely available in fishing ports. Ultimately though I can't see an easy solution which will mean UK boats can sail outside UK waters with red in their tanks - so at best you get the rules to stay relaxed provided you never cross the irish sea or channel. Our ability to influence that position is of course going to be greatly diminished (depending on the outcome in October). I actually wonder whether the long term solution is to grin and bare it in the interim and then in areas where there is moderate leisure diesel demand the providers may add (or switch) to white.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Poly

I actually wonder whether the long term solution is to grin and bare it

How refreshingly Scottish. I'd have thought the threat alone might stave off the tax change for years!

[TILLY]

We ARE being ripped off by our Government on prices for all our fuel.
Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before? Suggesting this would get a politician a large number of votes. Regarding the petrol users slagging the diesel users reminds me of Rifle shooters slagging Pistol shooters a number of years ago when the Govt. banned the Pistol shooters, not realising they are dividing to rule.

[ShinyShoe]

Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before?

Because...

If you use red in your tank and then go into the EU... ( So for the south coasters France, Belgium, Holland for the West Coasters - Ireland. ) You are in for a whole hell of a lot of grief. You may get away with saying it's foreign oil... I don't know how a boat coming from Egypt to Gibraltar currently accounts for fuel...

...but getting the red to go away takes ages. So you might find being dipped at entry a pain, but being dipped if you've been there 1 month may be more of an issue...

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Last Tango

Yep.

UK lost it's appeal to retain the derogation at the European court. Might be a way out of it after Brexit but at the minute their hands are tied.

That isn't actually true, Tango. The derogation was lost in 2007 but the rules implemented then allowed us to use red diesel but pay the equivalent duty and vat as road users. The advantage was that diesel was available for us to use in some places around our coast provided the Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils (RDCO) was willing to sell to the leisure boater.

The issue now is simply the colour of the diesel and it's a good example of the trivial rules that the EU has dumped on all of the EU countries. Rules pertaining to all sorts of consumer usage and products.

Scotland may be particularly hard hit because marinas are few and they also supply to local commercial vessels on a regular basis. Generally I would guess that the commercial sector purchases considerably more fuel than the leisure sector so the incentive to instal additional white diesel fueling systems may not be great. I can see a situation where it may not be possible legally to use a diesel vessel without very significant inconvenience. Or, alternatively, commercial vessel users will be inconvenienced where a RDCO chooses to supply only white diesel from their current system.

The issue will be most acute where a diesel vessel is unable to fuel dockside and since many diesel vessels are considerably over the dimensions and weight to be transported to suppliers for fuel, their only reasonable alternative would be to organise a tanker to deliver fuel - if possible.

There is also the knock-on side effect for visitors to the UK and particularly Scotland and the north of England because of our remoteness. If you are a boating visitor to the UK and you can't reasonably collect fuel, your alternative is very likely not to come. So tourism will be hit also.

It is intended that the policing of these new rules will be aligned with that of policing road users.

With all the possible issues around the EU ruling plus the costs to make the infrastructure happen and the costs of policing it, it's difficult to believe that the government is caving in just because of the colour of the fuel. However, it's notable that in the consultation document it is suggested there will be no additional policing cost. Does this suggest that the policing will be done by the fuel suppliers perhaps?

If we leave the EU one may think that the issue will go away, well, maybe aye, maybe no. If Nicola Sturgeon gets her way she'll want us back into the EU...see where this is going? Someone should pass this by her too since a big push for Scottish income is the tourist market. Oops, better stop there or Poly will 'av me....

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by TILLY

We ARE being ripped off by our Government on prices for all our fuel.
Since it was an Eu deal, IF we leave, why not revert to what was the position before? Suggesting this would get a politician a large number of votes. Regarding the petrol users slagging the diesel users reminds me of Rifle shooters slagging Pistol shooters a number of years ago when the Govt. banned the Pistol shooters, not realising they are dividing to rule.

Actually fuel costs in the UK are similar if not lower than most of Europe. France is considerably more expensive, Portugal & Spain slightly cheaper. Germany, Austria about parity, Italy more expensive etc etc.
If you want to see a real rip off, try filling up in Norway, & they make the stuff.
As regards to “slagging” the diesel users, you must be reading a different thread to me. We haven’t even got to the banter stage yet, slagging off is waaay down the line[emoji6]

[ShinyShoe]

If you were designing a system from scratch would you not get everyone to have white, including the commercial guys and either:

- allow them to reclaim the road element from the gov? Like people do for VAT etc.

Or

- when the customer pays for it without the road element, the pump operator doses the fuel with a "shot" of red...? Either manually or even automatically from the pump? This has the advantage that if if install a separate heating tank I can fill it with red, but if I actually was transferring out of that tank to my propulsion tank I would risk being caught...

I know there are people who claim white has more ethanol and cr@p that rots rubber seals. I'm assuming that is not actually an issue and is internet b****s.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

If you were designing a system from scratch would you not get everyone to have white, including the commercial guys and either:

- allow them to reclaim the road element from the gov? Like people do for VAT etc.

Or

- when the customer pays for it without the road element, the pump operator doses the fuel with a "shot" of red...? Either manually or even automatically from the pump? This has the advantage that if if install a separate heating tank I can fill it with red, but if I actually was transferring out of that tank to my propulsion tank I would risk being caught...

I know there are people who claim white has more ethanol and cr@p that rots rubber seals. I'm assuming that is not actually an issue and is internet b****s.

Commercial operators of petrol craft can reclaim the duty paid on petrol therefore there is an acceptable method of everyone running on the same fuel & those entitled to the duty free fuel having access to it. The problem with using that system for diesel is the sheer volume of diesel used for none marine purposes. Charging the duty on all diesel and allowing those entitled to reclaim the duty would be a huge increase in financial turnover & presumably it would create more problems than it cures. Our government don't want to change anything as they know it will have a negative affect on the leisure industry & quite frankly I'm sure they have better things to do than chase leisure boaters for a fairly small amount of duty.
Lets hope this is one of the positive things that comes out of Brexit and the current system is retained.

[jwalker]

I'm for the all white solution. I'm sure there can be a workable solution where taxes can be reclaimed as for petrol but combined with the policing of the supply for the large users. There is currently a bar at 2300ltr with adjusted rules for the big users, I'm sure with a bit of creativity a good, workable system can be devised.

It's fine saying that it's a not wanted system but it will be put into law if we don't break away from the EU soon.

The current ruling is just ridiculous and is an example where other EU countries (apparently our EU friends!) have brought a court action simply because of our fuel colour. If the colour is the issue, remove the colour, remove the issue.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by jwalker

I'm for the all white solution. I'm sure there can be a workable solution where taxes can be reclaimed as for petrol but combined with the policing of the supply for the large users. There is currently a bar at 2300ltr with adjusted rules for the big users, I'm sure with a bit of creativity a good, workable system can be devised.

It's fine saying that it's a not wanted system but it will be put into law if we don't break away from the EU soon.

The current ruling is just ridiculous and is an example where other EU countries (apparently our EU friends!) have brought a court action simply because of our fuel colour. If the colour is the issue, remove the colour, remove the issue.

If you read the consultation document it doesn't even consider a white only policy id imagine it would be far too easy to abuse.
The present proposal is to make leisure boaters use white only the question is will that have a negative affect on leisure boating and the answer has to be yes of course it will what our government does to reduce that effect remains to be seen. I suspect some interim scheme will be implemented in the short term but longer term who knows?

[Pikey Dave]

I’ve not read the consultation doc, but 2 salient points spring to mind.

1,Where does the onus on deciding who buys what lay? I.e is it the pump attendants responsibility to decide who can buy red or not? Or is it the purchaser?I can go down to my local garage with jerry cans & fill up with red diesel no questions asked. The garage doesn’t care what I do with it.

2, how is any eventual scheme going to be enforced & what penalties will be applied for infringement? Personally I think it will quietly die a death after the initial furore.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Hopefully it won’t be an issue after the 31st October. If it is, welcome to our (outboard) world [emoji6]

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I’ve not read the consultation doc, but 2 salient points spring to mind.

1,Where does the onus on deciding who buys what lay? I.e is it the pump attendants responsibility to decide who can buy red or not? Or is it the purchaser?I can go down to my local garage with jerry cans & fill up with red diesel no questions asked. The garage doesn’t care what I do with it.

2, how is any eventual scheme going to be enforced & what penalties will be applied for infringement? Personally I think it will quietly die a death after the initial furore.

Yes I think you could be correct I've not heard of anyone being checked for having paid the duty on their fuel or not
It will cost the govt more to police than they stand to make so I'd imagine it will be a case of turning an official blind eye

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by beamishken

......so I'd imagine it will be a case of turning an official blind eye

A bit like when you go to a French supermarket & see the cooked meat next to the raw chicken then[emoji6]

[jwalker]

I have read the consultation document and I intend to respond to it. There are specific questions for both the commercial and leisure sectors where there is a request for responses.

Pikey, currently the onus is on the buyer/supplier. If commercial diesel is purchased the seller has to provide the buyer with a declaration which has to be signed and often also has the address of the buyer included.

I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.

The consultation document also covered the use of a commercial vessel for private use. I suspect this is quite common but in this case the requirement is to drain and flush the fuel tank before refilling with white for the private use. Well, that's likely to happen before you take the kids for a bit off fishing on a Sunday...not!

The proposed system is going to encourage law breaking if white diesel is not readily available so in that sense it isn't a good solution.

I'm still for all white, it may also improve the illegal use of red on the road since all diesel will be fully taxed at source.

[beamishken]

Originally Posted by jwalker

I have read the consultation document and I intend to respond to it. There are specific questions for both the commercial and leisure sectors where there is a request for responses.

Pikey, currently the onus is on the buyer/supplier. If commercial diesel is purchased the seller has to provide the buyer with a declaration which has to be signed and often also has the address of the buyer included.

I'm not so sure about the 'blind eye' thing. This ruling will be put into UK law and the consultation document makes it clear that it will be policed in a similar way and with the same penalties as the road fuel system.

The consultation document also covered the use of a commercial vessel for private use. I suspect this is quite common but in this case the requirement is to drain and flush the fuel tank before refilling with white for the private use. Well, that's likely to happen before you take the kids for a bit off fishing on a Sunday...not!

The proposed system is going to encourage law breaking if white diesel is not readily available so in that sense it isn't a good solution.

I'm still for all white, it may also improve the illegal use of red on the road since all diesel will be fully taxed at source.

I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by beamishken

I'd suspect if the whole farming and plant operating community including the travelling community had the ability to reclaim their duty on tractor or generator fuel then those tractors and generators may become a little inefficient as the fuel found its way into other vehicles.

Perhaps, but they're not paying tax at source presently so what would be different?At the moment all they need to do is pour it into their vehicle tanks. If the alternative is to falsify tax returns and if the checking was robust there may be some reluctance to do that. The travelling community is unlikely to be an issue where commercial tax returns are concerned, I would have thought.