It the death of the rib on the horizon?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by kerfoo

...or is it the re-birth of the Rib?
Seems like electrics work well on things that are light weight with a high payload capacity such as e-bikes. If/when the numbers start to look better for marine use I expect ribs would be some of the first test beds. A light craft with the same propulsion will usually go further than a heavier one. Long live the Rib.

I’m not sure ribs are “light” by those standards. They take a lot of power to get on the plane, and stay there. Bear in mind also that there is no energy recovery from braking possible on a boat so they will always be less efficient than a car.

Now PWC might be able to be viable. Because 1. People tend not to use them for longer distance/endurance. 2. They are lighter for the size. 3. The %age of space used by the engine is big (which makes battery space as electric motors are smaller). 4. Acceleration matters a lot to them. 5. Most are brought out on trailers each day and so can be relatively easily charged.

[Stevie Bill]

Coincidentally, I've just been browsing t'internet and catching up with developments in kite boating and sail power. 65knots for a sailboat puts most of our small ribs to shame. And a kited crossing of the Pacific.... I've got a kite kit on order. Not expecting planing speed, but no reason I couldn't travel at Hull speed almost indefinitely and for free....

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Watch the fuel thingy or Poly will av us cut off at the knees.

No harm debating fuel, just when it starts to become a political rant (one way or other) then there are better places for it... but I’m sure those stoking those coals know they are trolling / pushing the boundaries so if they keep going I’ll just remove them from the discussion!

[Fenlander]

I know we are talking about RIBs but I was reading the other day some of the cruise ship air pollution figures. Seems for certain air pollutants the cruise ships visiting Southampton during a year emit 4x more pollution than all the cars in Southampton over the same period.

So I'm sure boating will get looked at even if the leisure users are last to be targeted. It makes me think though re the 2-stroke outboard UK ban around 2007. What on earth was the justification for allowing commercial users to carry on buying them?

Really interested by the electric ferry in post #4. Of course that's a very specific use with just a 2.2Nm crossing so if they are on the ball as it looks it can be on charge during the turnaround for almost as much time as it's making the crossing.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

I know we are talking about RIBs but I was reading the other day some of the cruise ship air pollution figures. Seems for certain air pollutants the cruise ships visiting Southampton during a year emit 4x more pollution than all the cars in Southampton over the same period.

.....

Really interested by the electric ferry in post #4. Of course that's a very specific use with just a 2.2Nm crossing so if they are on the ball as it looks it can be on charge during the turnaround for almost as much time as it's making the crossing.

The technology to do it is there but unfortunately the infrastructure isn't. I know that on the Thames, some vessels use 80% of their fuel whilst alongside as there isn't the infrastructure to provide sufficient shore power.

[HDAV]

Originally Posted by Poly

Now PWC might be able to be viable. Because 1. People tend not to use them for longer distance/endurance. 2. They are lighter for the size. 3. The %age of space used by the engine is big (which makes battery space as electric motors are smaller). 4. Acceleration matters a lot to them. 5. Most are brought out on trailers each day and so can be relatively easily charged.

There have been a couple of attempts at this and one almost got of the dry dock. For inland use absolutely they
Could be ideal, fun, green, quiet in fact replacing pretty much every normal objection apart from one.....

Would need at least a 60mile cruising range to replace petrol units and a 60+ mph top speed

[Poly]

Originally Posted by HDAV

in fact replacing pretty much every normal objection apart from one.....

We could have a remote control that delivers a shock via the handlebars - in an attempt at ECT!

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Stevie Bill

Coincidentally, I've just been browsing t'internet and catching up with developments in kite boating and sail power. 65knots for a sailboat puts most of our small ribs to shame. And a kited crossing of the Pacific.... I've got a kite kit on order. Not expecting planing speed, but no reason I couldn't travel at Hull speed almost indefinitely and for free....

That'll be "interesting" to hear about ....on a RIB for sure

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by willk

Are you sure he's a Reader, and not a Contributor?

Of course...They would almost certainly make a START ....with highly particulate polluting old tech Diesel "Smoker" RIBs

[willk]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Of course...They would almost certainly make a START ....with highly particulate polluting old tech Diesel "Smoker" RIBs

And those of us with a modern Tier 3 engine will breathe a (clean) sigh of relief.

[Stevie Bill]

It's going to take some determined development... But if ic engines are banned, electric is limited by range/duration... Then foiler may be the choice for the future.... If anyone could build a foil set big and strong enough to lift (say) Gurnard's frib... And controls that don't need total concentration and attention... I see no reason why this is not the way to go... https://www.pushkiting.co.uk/we-love...boarding-2019/

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Maximus

That'll be "interesting" to hear about ....on a RIB for sure

Ah he doesn't have a real RIB... which actually creates some interesting thoughts - it will be comparatively heavy, although the V is not as big as some so less draggy at displacement speed. But where/how will you fix the kite to the boat?

Originally Posted by Stevie Bill

If anyone could build a foil set big and strong enough to lift (say) Gurnard's frib...

someone was advertising a foiling rib in a magazine I bought recently.

And controls that don't need total concentration and attention... I see no reason why this is not the way to go... https://www.pushkiting.co.uk/we-love...boarding-2019/

RIB users want point and go simplicity - I think it would need to be automagic - but if we can control drones as precisely as we do I don't see that having that sort of intelligent automatic control of foils should be impossible. You need an XXXXXL shaft engine though!

[Stevie Bill]

Kite is harnessed to a traveller attached to a fixed line between Bow Eye and transom centre. Several catamarans already equipped with this kind of set up. And kite controllers already available for ocean going freighters (radio control) or motor cruisers (using intelligent winch controls). The trick will be to bring this all together in a package suited to slightly bulkier boats in the 5m size class, then finding a foil that is robust without breaking the bank account. I think it could be near, but most boaters are still fighting their 2stroke/4stroke/long shaft/short shaft battles and may not be looking round to see what others are doing. The kite tender is already available as a commercial package. Kitetender(TM) kiteboat & sailing .. Kite ribs must be possible!

[jwalker]

All this electrical stuff is pie in the sky until we manage to produce electricity reliably, sustainably and without using fossil fuel.

Presently we use fossil fuel or nuclear to make steam, the steam turns the turbines, the turbines turn the generators, the generators feed the transformers and finally the current reaches the national grid. Every conversion looses a substantial amount of energy. Then, if you're dopey, you feed it into a big battery where you loose even more energy before using it to power your device.

Might as well just use the fossil fuel to power the device and therefore use much less of it. Am I missing something?

Oh yeah, we'll use wind power..until it's a calm day then we won't even be able to make a cuppa 'til it gets windy again..or we get out the fossil fuel for the stove.

And that doesn't even consider the huge amount of energy required to produce the wind turbine, the digging of the iron ore, the digging of the limestone for the cement, the digging of the rock/gravel/sand for the concrete, the mining for the copper and aluminium for the windings and cables, the machining and the welding and the paint and the roads and the cables and the making of the blades from composites...oops we need fossil fuel to make the resins and the reinforcement, diesel to drive the plant and machinery and fuels for the smelters and, and ,and...

We're miles and miles away from being anything like green at present. But a lot of folks are making a lot of money on the back of it... cynical, me? Nah.

As willk points out, us old folks will be dead in the not too distant future, you young folks can sort it all out.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by willk

And those of us with a modern Tier 3 engine will breathe a (clean) sigh of relief.

Modern!??... And was that ....Tier or ....Tears? ...reminds me of an Old Song

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Stevie Bill

Kite is harnessed to a traveller attached to a fixed line between Bow Eye and transom centre.

the cleat at the front (on top of the "non tube" or the eye where you might attach the winch from the trailer? I'm not sure how strong the first is, the second is as solid as you will get but then means the traveller line has to be guided over the "tube" and the cleat. Have you considered putting a sling through the anchor well drain and around that bulkhead?

Kite ribs must be possible!

I'm sure it is, but then sailing boats are available and less faff. My main reason for switching from dinghy "cruising" to ribs (or rib-like boats!) was that 1. When the weather here is lovely for boating its often not good enough for sailing (and therefore definitely not for kiting), 2. when the weather is good for interesting sailing its often not blowing the direction you might want to go - which means boating with a deadline (like the inconvenience of a job to get back to) becomes restrictive, 3. the rest of the time its so bad you aren't going out in any boat, or at least not one without a roof.

[Ferryman]

Originally Posted by Fenlander

I know we are talking about RIBs but I was reading the other day some of the cruise ship air pollution figures. Seems for certain air pollutants the cruise ships visiting Southampton during a year emit 4x more pollution than all the cars in Southampton over the same period.

So I'm sure boating will get looked at even if the leisure users are last to be targeted. It makes me think though re the 2-stroke outboard UK ban around 2007. What on earth was the justification for allowing commercial users to carry on buying them?

Really interested by the electric ferry in post #4. Of course that's a very specific use with just a 2.2Nm crossing so if they are on the ball as it looks it can be on charge during the turnaround for almost as much time as it's making the crossing.

It's absolutely nothing to do with ribs but when the carriers are in Portsmouth, we developed a natural gas combined heat and power generator system with SCR exhaust which cuts the NOx emissions to a negligible level.

I've retired now but there was a lot of talk of doing the same to the cruise liner ports so they don't have to burn diesel or heavy fuel in port. Very big investment though as the only way to make big stuff stack up is to run it and the cruise ships all dock at the same time.

Anyway, back to unpractical electric ribs and sailing boats!

[jeffstevens763@g]

Well we've had mobile phones for 30 years can you get a signal everywhere if you do its crap, much more simple to sort than going all electric engined on the roads and sea, I won't mention public transport as an alternative to private vehicles 2050 not a hope

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Presently we use fossil fuel or nuclear to make steam, the steam turns the turbines, the turbines turn the generators, the generators feed the transformers and finally the current reaches the national grid. Every conversion looses a substantial amount of energy.

Might as well just use the fossil fuel to power the device and therefore use much less of it. Am I missing something?

No, but perhaps overlooking some things! IF you decide Nuclear is an acceptable fuel source, its clearly not going to be a nuclear powered RIB...
I understood, but I don't have time to google and confirm, that the energy efficiency of a gas power station was more efficient than say a car engine, even with losses from transmission etc. I don't know whether that was in the days when cars struggled to do 30mpg or is up-to-date (don't forget there's energy involved in refining fuel suitable for road vehicles, transporting it etc). The other factor is that the pollution is in one place where, potentially, you can do a lot more to clean/contain it before releasing to atmosphere. You can scrub NOx, SOx out far easier in a chimney than an exhaust. There has long been talk of carbon capture - which might just about be viable in the timescales for an electric rib. Even without that, there is an argument that the physical geography of cities with dense buildings and traffic makes them particularly bad for air quality and moving the fumes away from those spaces would improve those areas (I hate cities, but am happy for them to be places where other people like to live, as it keeps them away from me!).

Oh yeah, we'll use wind power..until it's a calm day then we won't even be able to make a cuppa 'til it gets windy again..or we get out the fossil fuel for the stove.

Well assuming you haven't done anything useful with the excess wind from the days when it was windier than you needed. You'll be aware of Cruachan and other pumped storage facilties I'm sure. But actually there is another interesting approach which actually takes one of your criticisms and at least partly turns it into a positive:

Then, if you're dopey, you feed it into a big battery where you loose even more energy before using it to power your device.

If you had a million electric vehicles in the UK each one is a huge energy storage device, but most will not actually be driving, or even need all of that power at the drop of a hat. There is potential, that when you plug your vehicle (or boat!) in to charge it works like a mini Cruachan - building up power when there is excess supply (perhaps price incentivised like the old "off peak heating") but also remains plugged in ready to give its power back to the grid when there is a spike in demand. I could imagine that might suit a leisure boat user rather nicely - his asset gets trickle charged at the cheapest rate over the week, but can then make him some money by selling power back to the grid on a rainy tuesday evening when he has no intention of using it....

And that doesn't even consider the huge amount of energy required to produce the wind turbine, the digging of the iron ore, the digging of the limestone for the cement, the digging of the rock/gravel/sand for the concrete, the mining for the copper and aluminium for the windings and cables, the machining and the welding and the paint and the roads and the cables and the making of the blades from composites...oops we need fossil fuel to make the resins and the reinforcement, diesel to drive the plant and machinery and fuels for the smelters and, and ,and...

I certainly agree with you there - I believe if you do the sums properly it takes about 2-3 years of scottish sunlight just to replace that energy that went into making a solar panel on a roof. Every middle class eco warrior round here has them on their roof though.

[jwalker]

Hehe. Did you take me seriously!?

Then, of course, there'll be no plastic so we won't have a rib to power anyway. You can't have a wooden one cos we'll need the trees to absorb the CO2. And if there's no plastic our clothes will disappear so we'll need to go back to wool and cotton and jute. And with all those sheep, imagine the amount of methane they'll produce farting - oh no! we killed all the cows because of that so we can't have leather anymore, jings we'll need to make our shoes out of bark..oops, that's trees, ok we could use grass instead....