Kill cord morons

[kerny]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

A good few years on and off with ribs and I have maybe wore the cord 3 times, generally if an 8 or above. Close a couple of times, but if you have no strength in your hands/thighs , then you should not be at sea.

7 years on fishfarm with open voeboats with twin 50's , and never. It would be too unsafe to wear the cord. Yes, 'unsafe'. Utterly ridiculous to make a song and safety dance, huh, safety dance, about it.



It is like safety belts in cars, deaths went down whilst long term injuries of being minced for the rest of your life went through the roof. As you might've done. But that's not the point.

Originally Posted by Starovich

Why not its a bit dull tonight....Robert if you hate H20 try this ... (As) 33

[robert hates h2o]

? Not sure of the two refs... Not a troll effort believe it or not.

I just don't get the love in from the authorities on kill cords. I found them to be a very large danger, yet was told to wear them by my employers because of pressure from on high .

[Nos4r2]

Why do you find them a very large danger?

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

It is like safety belts in cars, deaths went down whilst long term injuries of being minced for the rest of your life went through the roof.

That's interesting. Do you have any figures or other references to back that up?

[robert hates h2o]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Why do you find them a very large danger?

When coming alongside a barge/platform in rough weather, you don't have the time to undo the cord and make a 'grab' on the other side of the boat.
Indeed, if you forgot you had it on and tried it, engine cuts and you're screwed. Ropes in props or worse.


Sorry , don't know how to multiquote..

Re john kennets post.

Its from memory of going through my test not long after the seatbelt law came in , and what was in the press at the time.
Law was 82/83 from memory and my Test was 84.

I 'may' be wrong but it is my understanding through all the years, and I would still want the Law repealed.
This is from someone who lost both parents in a crash in the 70's and I am positive they wouldn't have been wearing belts.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

Its from memory of going through my test not long after the seatbelt law came in ,

they've really dumbed down the theory element of the test by not asking new drivers to appraise statistical effectiveness of safety measures haven't they!

and what was in the press at the time.

Obviously nobody can be sure what you read at the time, but the general consensus soon after was it was a massive success and you can go back and look at the data yourself and you will see that there has not been an increase in serious injuries amongst drivers and passengers! What you may have read, and misunderstood, is discussion of "risk compensation" the concept that a driver wearing a seatbelt feels subconsciously safer and thus will take greater chances - this increasing the risk of an accident and the increase in risk to other road users, particularly cyclists and pedestrians, who are not similarly protected. It is potentially a valid argument in a kill chord or life jacket type debate - but anyone using it would need to really understand it to avoid simply creating a straw man argument.

and I would still want the Law repealed.

You might need to hone your argument a little to convince government though - they'll generally be more interested in sound reasoning and data than "Robert thinks they are a bad idea". Paramedics and A&E doctors get a distorted view of life because they see more accidents than normal people - but you might want to ask one of them if they think seat belts are a bad idea?

When coming alongside a barge/platform in rough weather, you don't have the time to undo the cord and make a 'grab' on the other side of the boat.

You'll find others here who agree that for close quarters work a kill chord can be an inconvenience. You'll also find people who argue that in true rough water situations (ironically the one time you say you did use it!) that they could be problematic. I've never seen any of them argue that makes them pointless for the other 99% of the time - they just remove it before they need to dance around the boat. I think if it is that critical you need to look at your system of working and see if there are other ways to "grab" the boat or you need a crew. Jumping around a boat in rough water doesn't sound like a controlled approach.

Indeed, if you forgot you had it on and tried it, engine cuts and you're screwed. Ropes in props or worse.

I'm not sure how a dead engine sucks a rope into its prop - but I'll accept that an unexpected cut off can cause problems. I'm not sure the consequences of those problems outweigh the consequence of being hit by a spinning prop, or an uncontrolled high powered boat careering out of control towards other water users.

PS. Welcome to RIBnet!

[willk]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

Sorry , don't know how to multiquote..

Re john kennets post...

Welcome to RIBnet, Robert. Have you seen RHIBs yet?

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Poly

kill chord

If you MUST be a pedant and destroy everything with perfectly good reasoning at least spell CORD right

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

If you MUST be a pedant and destroy everything with perfectly good reasoning at least spell CORD right

I'd spotted that, but didn't want to be.... pedantic

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I'd spotted that, but didn't want to be.... pedantic

I thought we were missing something since the Facebook revolt.

I'm going to flounce off in a minute saying I'll never come back, then check in regularly to see if anyone's talking about me

[willk]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I'd spotted that, but didn't want to be.... pedantic

Pedantic?!? Persistent, Shirley?

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

When coming alongside a barge/platform in rough weather, you don't have the time to undo the cord and make a 'grab' on the other side of the boat.
Indeed, if you forgot you had it on and tried it, engine cuts and you're screwed. Ropes in props or worse.

If you have to "Make a Grab" for it, you've done it wrong. If its that "grabby" go round and try again.

A Kill cord gives 2-3 feet of movement enough to get to one side of the boat at least, if not, take the thing off for the last moment. Then you move sedatately to the side of the boat and place your hand on the cleat.

Just because one aspect lasting 10 seconds is a little more difficult does not mean never use it at all.

[tonymac]

Welcome to RibNet Robert.

Congratulations with jumping right in there and causing a furore!
I like the style!!

[mick]

[blootac]

Could you not just use a longer kill cord?

Admittedly there's more risk of it getting caught around things and people but it sounds like you're the only one in the boat as you're the one jumping around grabbing hold of things...

I'd much rather it get tangled on something and kill the engine prematurely than fall overboard without it attached because I detached it last minute...

[robert hates h2o]

Originally Posted by Poly

they've really dumbed down the theory element of the test by not asking new drivers to appraise statistical effectiveness of safety measures haven't they!


Obviously nobody can be sure what you read at the time, but the general consensus soon after was it was a massive success and you can go back and look at the data yourself and you will see that there has not been an increase in serious injuries amongst drivers and passengers! What you may have read, and misunderstood, is discussion of "risk compensation" the concept that a driver wearing a seatbelt feels subconsciously safer and thus will take greater chances - this increasing the risk of an accident and the increase in risk to other road users, particularly cyclists and pedestrians, who are not similarly protected. It is potentially a valid argument in a kill chord or life jacket type debate - but anyone using it would need to really understand it to avoid simply creating a straw man argument.


You might need to hone your argument a little to convince government though - they'll generally be more interested in sound reasoning and data than "Robert thinks they are a bad idea". Paramedics and A&E doctors get a distorted view of life because they see more accidents than normal people - but you might want to ask one of them if they think seat belts are a bad idea?

You'll find others here who agree that for close quarters work a kill chord can be an inconvenience. You'll also find people who argue that in true rough water situations (ironically the one time you say you did use it!) that they could be problematic. I've never seen any of them argue that makes them pointless for the other 99% of the time - they just remove it before they need to dance around the boat. I think if it is that critical you need to look at your system of working and see if there are other ways to "grab" the boat or you need a crew. Jumping around a boat in rough water doesn't sound like a controlled approach.
I'm not sure how a dead engine sucks a rope into its prop - but I'll accept that an unexpected cut off can cause problems. I'm not sure the consequences of those problems outweigh the consequence of being hit by a spinning prop, or an uncontrolled high powered boat careering out of control towards other water users.

PS. Welcome to RIBnet!

Thankyow

Hard to go through all the points, but as I said, 'my understanding' & "I may be wrong" , but even then I wouldn't change my mind.
Seatbelts being compulsory are an affront.

Originally Posted by willk

Welcome to RIBnet, Robert. Have you seen RHIBs yet?

Thanks, join request sent.

Originally Posted by Starovich

If you have to "Make a Grab" for it, you've done it wrong. If its that "grabby" go round and try again.

A Kill cord gives 2-3 feet of movement enough to get to one side of the boat at least, if not, take the thing off for the last moment. Then you move sedatately to the side of the boat and place your hand on the cleat.

Just because one aspect lasting 10 seconds is a little more difficult does not mean never use it at all.

2-3 feet of movement means hee haw if you have to 7/8 feet to side of boat (consoles were all rear at starboard side).
One thing I should say is fair enough, go round again "IF" weather was clement, but although Powerboat 2 with commercial endorsement covers you to what is it, force 5? , you were working in a damn sight worse than that.
And possibly it was site/job specific , but ropes and props would've been a problem even with a dead engine.

Originally Posted by tonymac

Welcome to RibNet Robert.

Congratulations with jumping right in there and causing a furore!
I like the style!!

All about making waves is what ribbing is about I thought.....

[robert hates h2o]

Originally Posted by blootac

Could you not just use a longer kill cord?

Admittedly there's more risk of it getting caught around things and people but it sounds like you're the only one in the boat as you're the one jumping around grabbing hold of things...

I'd much rather it get tangled on something and kill the engine prematurely than fall overboard without it attached because I detached it last minute...

No good if on starboard side you were trying to make a grab, you would have to go around the console and it would snag for sure.


For the record I ain't defending the company as I jacked recently to go fashin' for prawns. 'Tis good to get out of the lifejacket culture an' all (lights touch paper and stands welllll back -safety first kids ....).

[Starovich]

You missed the caveat
"if not, take the thing off for the last moment. Then you move sedatately to the side of the boat and place your hand on the cleat."

If its that "grabby" and rushed and dangerous most of the time, I would say the SOP needs changing. For instance if conditions are that bad, get a crew on board, then no need to leave the helm.

You don't see the captain of the Tanker running from the bridge to the mooring bollards to haul the line over to the shore.

In a Smaller boat, in normal conditions the kill cord should never cause an issue, either you take leave the kill cord on for the last part of the maneuver, or you take it off at the last moment. If its too dangerous risky to take it off, should you be doing it solo (and i don't mean the odd occasion)?

[robert hates h2o]

Originally Posted by Starovich

You missed the caveat
"if not, take the thing off for the last moment. Then you move sedatately to the side of the boat and place your hand on the cleat."

If its that "grabby" and rushed and dangerous most of the time, I would say the SOP needs changing. For instance if conditions are that bad, get a crew on board, then no need to leave the helm.

You don't see the captain of the Tanker running from the bridge to the mooring bollards to haul the line over to the shore.

In a Smaller boat, in normal conditions the kill cord should never cause an issue, either you take leave the kill cord on for the last part of the maneuver, or you take it off at the last moment. If its too dangerous risky to take it off, should you be doing it solo (and i don't mean the odd occasion)?

I hadn't missed the caveat, just hadn't responded as I'm sure he wasn't being serious...

And the last part is the most dangerous, so if you remove the 'chord' at that point, why bother at all?
A minor gripe...... (Chord gag...).

True, sop's ask for 2 in all types of boats at all times, but that is just not practical.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by robert hates h2o

Hard to go through all the points, but as I said, 'my understanding' & "I may be wrong" , but even then I wouldn't change my mind.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, even when you're wrong. Documentary evidence suggests that you are wrong about seatbelts, and I don't think you're any less wrong about kill cords.

Whilst I understand that there are some cases where kills cords might be a nuisance (and these should probably be addressed through better work practice), I'm not aware of any incidents where actual harm has resulted from the use of a kill cord.

There have however been several fatalities and life changing injuries that could definitely have been avoided simply by using a kill cord. We have seen other incidents where boats have circuited out of control after their crew were ejected which could easily have ended just as badly. On the other hand there have been a number of people who have come out of their RIBs in a variety of conditions and have all been recovered unharmed, not least because they had chosen to use their kill cords.

Given how much airtime other people get in theirs I'd definitely suggest using a kill cord on that little Searider when you get it going again!