Laws on salvage

Tim M · 30 November 2004, 21:21

I am interested on the salvage laws that apply to rivers. Here is a hypothetical situation:
If I were to find a boat which I know has been sitting half sunk in a river for the last three months, would it be within the laws of the land to remove things from it (fixtures and fittings).
The boat is very definatly abandoned; as I say it's been half sunk for months now. It's a 4 or 5 meter day boat - GRP hull type thing.

Remember, all hypothetical of course

Tim

Louise · 30 November 2004, 21:25

Salvage law is discussed here. I assume it applies to rivers as well as the sea? HTH

Zippy · 30 November 2004, 22:12

Dont quote me on this and im sure people know better than me but i think inland waterways fall under a different law???

Cant suport this at the moment but in one of my hungover lectures a few years back on maritime law im sure i heard the lecturer say something like that.

When im back in the office tomorrow i will look in my book and see what i can find out.

Richard B · 30 November 2004, 22:25

Tim,
Be careful! There may be local byelaws affecting this. If it's a tidal river, then it's likely that the wreck is crown property by default, otherwise title may be held by the owner of the river bed. In any case, the usual procedure for dealing with any wreck is to notify the Receiver of Wrecks to establish ownership and resolve any salvage claim.

Of course, if you're not "caught" removing fixtures and fittings, this is all academic, but consider why the craft has been left there - perhaps due to hardship or misfortune? And if you were the owner, how would you feel if your boat was plundered and stripped before you had the opportunity to recover it?

Tim M · 30 November 2004, 22:25

I get the feeling this boat has simply been abandoned; this stretch of river seems to be where everyone dumps old boats. It's been there for a good few months if not years and is starting to rot.
I will try and find out if anyone owns it. If no-one does I feel it's my duty to help keep the river clear of old rotting rubbish

Will "reccie" the boat and post a pic to see what u think.....

Bilge Rat · 01 December 2004, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

Tim,
Be careful! There may be local byelaws affecting this. If it's a tidal river, then it's likely that the wreck is crown property by default, otherwise title may be held by the owner of the river bed. In any case, the usual procedure for dealing with any wreck is to notify the Receiver of Wrecks to establish ownership and resolve any salvage claim.

Of course, if you're not "caught" removing fixtures and fittings, this is all academic, but consider why the craft has been left there - perhaps due to hardship or misfortune? And if you were the owner, how would you feel if your boat was plundered and stripped before you had the opportunity to recover it?

Richard...Come on the guys had three months to recover the wreck, if the council suddenly decide they are going to clean up the river do you honestly think they'd give a damn about the owners feelings ! more likely it would be dragged out and skipped.

Finders keepers springs to mind in this instance, if the owner was that bothered he would have recovered the wreck !!

MeMe · 01 December 2004, 09:33

.........I'd board her in full view of everyone without anything to hide. If challenged I'd appologise, if not I'd go about my business of removing items as neatly as possible with as little damage as possible and be on my merry way.

I would thereafter keep my "loot" in a safe place without using or selling it for at least 3 months (no reason for this time frame) and if during this period I was approached either by the owner, police or whoever, I'd hand it back with appologies and advice it was removed without damage to the craft. If not, I'd consider it mine. It may be breaking the law, it may be viewed by some as not right, it may be opportunist, however - that's life.

DM · 01 December 2004, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeMe

it may be opportunist, however - that's life.

Thanks for putting my mind at rest, Graeme. I've seen this ropey old Zodiac lying about in Abersoch and I fancied lifting a few bits off it. I'll feel much better about now.

DM

MeMe · 01 December 2004, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmanning

I've seen this ropey old Zodiac lying about in Abersoch and I fancied lifting a few bits off it.DM

..........was a Prosport

thorper · 01 December 2004, 15:40

You should discuss with the receiver of wreck - she can tell you what the legal position is and give you advice about what can and cant be done with it.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-en...r_of_wreck.htm

Ricky

Scary Des · 01 December 2004, 16:29

If i were you and I thought that someone had lost this boat I would take it back to my house, inform the Police that I had found it and wait for the rightful owner to collect it.
If they don’t it is yours after a short period of time

(can remember how long).
Then flog the boat on ebay and buy new fittings.

Des

Searider · 01 December 2004, 16:46

I bought a dory that had sat on the Thames for years at the bottom of a farmers field.

Knocked on the door of the farm nearest to the boat and asked who owned the boat. Farmer told me that he did and a deal was struck.

A little different to your situation but a chat with whoevers land the boat is attached to may well reap rewards. If the boat is in the landowners way then he may have already have complained to the navigation authority and be able to put you in touch with the relevent person. They may be able to trace the Owner through licence records and be able to confirm or otherwise that the boat is abandoned.

Neville · 01 December 2004, 17:27

You havent said if its tidal or not. if it is in the sea, it is very clear what to do with wreck. You can lift it, and immediately tell the receiver of wreck with the correct form.

Once you have informed the receiver of wreck, they may or may not take steps to trace ownership. If they find the owner, you will be awarded a suitable salvage claim which would pay you for lifting it. If the owner did not wish to pay you as the claim would probably be more than the boat is worth, then he / she would probably be happy for you to keep it.

That is what normally happens. And its worthwhile to do it legally , because a)everything is above board and b) you are legally entitled to an award for salvaging it if the owner does want it back. Basically you cant lose.

If its in a lake, the local police station is the best option, and they will decide if its worth keeping for a period of time.

Again you cant really lose because they probably wont locate the owner and then you have atleast legally tried to find the owner.

Remember everything is owned by someone, or an insurance company. And it would be embarrasing for someone to come knocking on your door when that could be simply avoided in the first place. Contact MCA for forms - its called voluntary salvage.

Tim M · 01 December 2004, 17:42

It's in a tidal river.

Pics to follow tomorrow....

Bollyfish · 01 December 2004, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neville

If its in a lake, the local police station is the best option, and they will decide if its worth keeping for a period of time.

I found 180 quid in a cafe once. I told the police and they said if no one claimed it I could keep it. So what Neville said makes sense. (If anyone is wondering, someone did claim it. They gave me a 20 quid reward though...)

Tim M · 02 December 2004, 19:40

I took this photo of the craft today. As you can see, it's pretty sunk.....

Zippy · 02 December 2004, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by timofengland

Remember, all hypothetical of course

Tim

I have asked around about this salvage thing and im almost sure the salvage laws are different to those adheared to in tidal waters and high seas.

Im told by a clever friend to claim salvage it must be...

...maritime property (i.e. designed for navigation, so not light ships or buoys etc),

...in tidal waters or,

...on the sea or on the edge of sea.

Sorry, its hardly an exact answer but then lawyers wouldnt make any money would they!

Advise given here already sounds pretty good. make an effort to find out whos it is. by the looks of it they dont want it!!!

Neville · 02 December 2004, 20:34

zippy, surely the fact that tim of england has said that it is in a tidal river means that it is tidal!

and you can claim salvage on anything that floats - literally. you can even claim salvage on a sheep - one that is floating or one that is sunk!

i will post some clippings of the MCA rules which say it in black and white and will thus end speculation!

Tim M · 02 December 2004, 21:03

I'm thinking of Salvaging the hole thing now. A friend wants in (he doesn't get out much - works in Debenhams!) which means I can blame him if all goes pear-shaped!

Going to try and work out who owns it first though. I'm guessing the broads authority won't tell me (data protection and all that).

Failing that, I'll ask around. If that doesn't reveal anything, I'll consider it mine!

Zippy · 02 December 2004, 21:08

Thats me told then!

Maritime law is completly different to any other form of law, (Tort, Criminal, contract etc) and as such can only be applied in a maritime context, hence the comment on maritime property. As such i think you would strugle to claim salvage on a sheep that has fallen into the water from the river bank however, If a ship carrying sheep sank you could claim salvage on the vessel and cargo and your award would would be proportional to the total value salvaged.

There are loads of other percularities for maritime law, most commonly know is the Lien allowing someone to legally arrest a vessel and detain it until a dispute is setteled. (often done my ships masters and crew if they havent been paid) This happens surprisingly often and i have cargo on a ship that has been arrested in East Africa for the last 4 months.

Anyhow, non of this matters now because tim has chosen the best method of get someone from Debenhams to pin any blame on!

Ill get my coat.