Leeway

[xpertski]

Glad that 'G L' has had a good experience with leeway, and is pleased with his rib, I look forward to seeing pictures of A)Arrival, and B) On the water......what set up did you go for in the end?


also to the forum generally, im sure if people wanted a separate thread could be set up to discuss the originality of the boat, (although saying its CAD design then from two hulls merged, is hardly conclusive proof of guilt!!!) however please in future use the large number of rib owners on this forum to discuss the topic which has been raised by the person initiating the thread, they post to ask advice about specific topics from those in the know, and doesnt help when things gooo so far away from the topic, especially on these largely unproductive disputes!!!.......just a thought to consider for future!

anyhoo, all the best G L with your purchase, and sorry this forum wasnt the greates of help in helping you decide!
happy ribbing

[HMJB]

A couple of people have stated that there is no one giving any feedback who owns or has any actual experience of Lee's ribs, so thought I should give some as an owner - the rib pictured at the start of this thread belongs to myself and one of my friends, didn't know it had been inspected and photographed and was going to be posted, but that doesn't really matter.
Have tried to be as objective as possible and fully admit that I am not a boat builder, but do have experience over a number of years with quite a few different ribs.
We are very happy with the boat and Lee does offer fantastic value for money. Des I believe he is trying to keep the price down to establish himself and get some ribs out there - I think the price will soon go up as there seem to be a few around now - a fairly common business model for a start up business I would have thought.
We were originally looking at second hand boats before finding Lee's website and completely agree with GL - Lees pricing is very competitive which enabled us to purchase a new rib as opposed to second hand and therefore benefit from everything which goes with a new purchase - warranties from Lee, the tube maker, engine manufacturer etc etc & also achieving the exact specification we wanted. Lee was very accommodating on that front and not tied to any particular manufacturer for any of the products which we required.
Lee was helpful throughout the build allowing us to change some ideas etc after the process had begun. I went to his workshop during the build period and was very happy with the quality of work that I saw (again I know I'm not a boat builder but I'm not a car mechanic either but have still bought a few of those - by taking an educated view on the risks etc involved - so far its worked!)
We took delivery of the boat in September and have used the boat throughout the winter and been out in all weathers, some calm and some rough - the boat has handled well so far in all conditions that we have used it in and I have had complete faith in the boat at all times.
With regards to the bend/hook/curve whatever you want to call it in the hull - we hadn't noticed it before the photo's appeared on ribnet - it is very slight, you really have to look hard to see it and even then is not very clear - but it is there. I believe it is very hard to judge from the photos as they are both taken from different angles. I also suspect there are a lot of other ribs out there with some small defects etc which lots of owners haven't noticed & that if a boat builder looked them over then I'm sure they would be able to point things out to laymen owners which they haven't spotted. As I am not a boat builder (after these photo's were posted) I have spoken / shown photos to a number of people who are in the know (or tell me they are) to satisfy my mind that the boat is structurally sound - it has been unanimously confirmed to me, so far, that in peoples opinions it is. The boat does not pull when being driven at speed and it seems to have no effect at all on handling.
The remainder of the build quality is good and the finish appears better than a lot of the more expensive ribs.
Lee was a decent guy to deal with and wish him all the best for the future - we are starting to see more Leeway's around and I know that there have been some orders for the 6.3 from people who have seen it in the yard where we now keep the boat.
I understand that people suspect that the boat is splashed (I don't know whether it is or not), but I don't really understand why their anger over splashing seems to be only vented on Lee when so many of the ribs in production today are thought to be splashed - maybe its because he is the only builder suspected of splashing who posts on ribnet, I don't know the answer to that one…..
All up though, if your budget matches Lees product, I would have no hesitation in recommending a Leeway.
Will await for this to be trawled through with a fine tooth comb and for me to be hauled up on all manner of points!!!

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by jackcastoff

it's quite obvious that he has put many, many hours of work in whether it be 'cutting and shutting' to make a mould - this process is as time consuming as making a plug from scratch and for all intents and purposes is as difficult if not more as so many alterations are required to the donor to tweak it

Well there ya go! You sir, haven't got a clue what you're talking about!

If it were harder to splash an existing hull, than to make your own, why did he/do people, do it? (all too commonly)..get real!

Maybe you'd like to share with us exactly what mouldings you've 'made yourself', and post some pics. It may give us an insight into your ability/knowledge/value of your opinion.

Whether you like the idea or not, I DO know a bit about this subject, in fact, if I say it myself, I know quite a lot. And you, are talking shite!

All the reasons that the legal route doesn't generally get taken to sort out these disputes, has been covered here in detail, yet there are always a dozen 'pub lawyers', that pop up on this site spouting the usual rubbish, just like you. You should try listening.

Facts:

Leeways rib IS a splash

Leeway it seems is a Liar

Leeways rib IS cheap...

There's a reason! As copies go, it's as wonky as hell! I have no idea what the quality of the construction is like, but frankly, going by the wonky moulding, I wouldn't hold my breath.

If he had stolen the design from me, he wouldn't still be selling them now!

I don't give a toss if he's working hard, he's a Liar! (at best) and there are plently of 'honest' hard working people out there who deserve more credit.

As usual, the reaction from most is driven by the same greed, that drives Leeway. They want a cheap boat, he wants a cheap buck, and niether care about anything else.

Well done.

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by HMJB

I understand that people suspect that the boat is splashed (I don't know whether it is or not), but I don't really understand why their anger over splashing seems to be only vented on Lee when so many of the ribs in production today are thought to be splashed - maybe its because he is the only builder suspected of splashing who posts on ribnet, I don't know the answer to that one…..

Quite simply, Leeway brought this on himself by claiming the hull to be "100% his design".

You're quite right, there are loads of copied hulls, most illegaly. But his stupid claims make a mockery of those lucky enough to possess the skills required, which he doesn't.

In short, he brought this on himself, unnecessarily.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by ADS

I would think he is referring to Gav, although the Seaquel 600 XS is a very different beast all togther in comparison to a Rib, although I believe the pricings are similar.

i think leeway thinks i have a vendetta against him, i dont! this subject has been covered many times before, not only here, but on another forum, this thread is the only one i have commented on, and only because i have seen a boat in the flesh with time to look around it and form an opinion on it.
I have only questioned the origins of the hull and the Designed in hook.

Originally Posted by JACKCASTOFF

Whilst it is unfortunate that he is rising to the slagging match it is hardly surprising as it is quite obvious that he has put many, many hours of work in whether it be 'cutting and shutting' to make a mould - this process is as time consuming as making a plug from scratch and for all intents and purposes is as difficult if not more as so many alterations are required to the donor to tweak it (i am fully aware of the work in mould making as I have made plugs and moulds of this size in GRP myself)

As you will have read, there are members from other forum who know phantoms like the backs of their hands! Its clear to see that a straight lift has been taken off a phantom 18(discussed, proven, in a previous thread!)
The Phantom 25 is next, if not already done.
If you are fully aware of the work involved in plugwork of a hull, you will know it takes a heck of a lot of time, even a team of skilled guys!

Anyone with any savvy i'm quite positive would take this opportunity to come crashing down on his "accusers" with a barage of pictures, drawings etc. I and others could eat humble pie, and Leeway Composites would be laughing all the way to the bank!

So i'll leave it at that, i'm sure Lee will come along with another vague "scoot around the subject" !

[Jono]

Originally Posted by HMJB

..... but I don't really understand why their anger over splashing seems to be only vented on Lee when so many of the ribs in production today are thought to be splashed - maybe its because he is the only builder suspected of splashing who posts on ribnet, I don't know the answer to that one…..

You might try searching the net under "Chaudron" or "Wonkey Maltese Splash". Read about a company that splashed and stretched a Phantom hull...to the extent the small design anomaly that was in the original hull was faithfully reproduced when splashed... Ooops.... When challenged it went from "not a splash" to "so what if it is?" quite quickly....It's the lying and bullshit that gets my back up....

[dogcatfish]

Have been watching this thread with interest. Can I question you're motives JF? It seems like you're not simply against splashing...

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Facts:

Leeways rib IS a splash

Leeway it seems is a Liar

Leeways rib IS cheap...

Are you deliberately trying to tear apart the reputation of an upcoming boat builder?

Of those 3, number 1 is the only one relevant, and that's up for debate. If it was a splash, it's up to the original manufacturer to defend it, not the public. I agree that it is not correct to copy someone's design, but in the modern market it happens all the time, and if things weren't copied and modified then nothing would ever improve.

I must admit that some of the posts have been rather disappointing for the community. Endless strings of personal insults and slurs that is serving no purpose other than damaging Leeways reputation, in some cases without any basis.

Like I said, if it is a splash, let the designer deal with it. You're accusations and assumptions (quite possibly misplaced) could be killing the hopes of someone that is trying hard to make it into a competitive industry, and providing us with a range of superb quality RIBs at fantastic prices (as quoted by his customers). C'mon, keep you're assumptions to yourself and spend you're time more productively (either building boats or using them!)

All the best Leeway...

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

You're quite right, there are loads of copied hulls, most illegaly. But his stupid claims make a mockery of those lucky enough to possess the skills required, which he doesn't.

how do you know what skills leeway composites posses??

We have had contracts for the following company/organizations.

M&S
Disney
mc claren
sunseeker

and many more major organizations not mentioned. we have never had any problems with any of our products.

I think you need to get something right. a slash is a copy of a product. our rib is not a copy of any boat in the world which would surgest to me that it is not a slash??

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by Scary Des

So don’t believe it if something sounds too good to be true, it often is. Leeway keeps saying his ribs are too cheap so he has to either put the price up or cut costs (quality) or go bust. All of which make the current ‘value for money’ unbelievable. Des

our ribs are to cheap and i have just increased my prices 10%. we need people to see our product, this results in us selling at cost price for a small time period...

[Jono]

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

Have been watching this thread with interest. Can I question you're motives JF? It seems like you're not simply against splashing...

Perhaps the Ginger one is against splashing and reading utter garbage as well? I know I’m not as fanatical as JF about the splashing of the Phantom, purely because, unlike JF, I don’t know the original designer as a friend of long standing. I’m still against it as a principal though….and I’m pretty confident that my boat isn’t splashed from someone else’s hard graft.

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

Are you deliberately trying to tear apart the reputation of an upcoming boat builder?

Is it too much to expect that you can’t really see where going from “it’s 100% my own CAD aided design” to “Cut’n shut two hardboat hulls” puts the builders reputation?

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

Of those 3, number 1 is the only one relevant, and that's up for debate. If it was a splash, it's up to the original manufacturer to defend it, not the public. I agree that it is not correct to copy someone's design, but in the modern market it happens all the time, and if things weren't copied and modified then nothing would ever improve. ...

So I take it that it’s not Business Studies or the like that you are studying at school?

[QUOTE=dogcatfish]I must admit that some of the posts have been rather disappointing for the community. Endless strings of personal insults and slurs that is serving no purpose other than damaging Leeways reputation,

…and who appointed you spokesperson for the “community” ? I think you’ll find Leeway started the name calling …“W*nker”.. if I remember correctly..in a previous thread.

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

…in some cases without any basis. ...

Why do you say without basis? What personal knowledge do you have of the issues/boats in question?

[Jono]

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

We have had contracts for the following company/organizations.

Disney

... Sorry, Lee, a cheap shot, I agree, but I couldn't resist it.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

Have been watching this thread with interest. Can I question you're motives JF? It seems like you're not simply against splashing...

Are you deliberately trying to tear apart the reputation of an upcoming boat builder?

Of those 3, number 1 is the only one relevant, and that's up for debate. If it was a splash, it's up to the original manufacturer to defend it, not the public. I agree that it is not correct to copy someone's design, but in the modern market it happens all the time, and if things weren't copied and modified then nothing would ever improve.

I must admit that some of the posts have been rather disappointing for the community. Endless strings of personal insults and slurs that is serving no purpose other than damaging Leeways reputation, in some cases without any basis.

Like I said, if it is a splash, let the designer deal with it. You're accusations and assumptions (quite possibly misplaced) could be killing the hopes of someone that is trying hard to make it into a competitive industry, and providing us with a range of superb quality RIBs at fantastic prices (as quoted by his customers). C'mon, keep you're assumptions to yourself and spend you're time more productively (either building boats or using them!)

All the best Leeway...

Gree with this........productive discussion please

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by Gav

i think leeway thinks i have a vendetta against him, i dont! this subject has been covered many times before, not only here, but on another forum, this thread is the only one i have commented on, and only because i have seen a boat in the flesh with time to look around it and form an opinion on it.
I have only questioned the origins of the hull and the Designed in hook.

we all know you are good friends with jon fuller and you make boats so joining him in his quest to "TRY" and destry the reputation of your competitors..

Originally Posted by Gav

As you will have read, there are members from other forum who know phantoms like the backs of their hands! Its clear to see that a straight lift has been taken off a phantom 18(discussed, proven, in a previous thread!)

"proven" i think not. i have proof this is not the case and will disclose that in a court of law if need be.

Originally Posted by Gav

The Phantom 25 is next, if not already done. !)

my 8.3 holds alot of similarities to the pant-um 25, but is not a splash as it is differant in many ways and i will show proof in a court of law if need be.

Originally Posted by Gav

Anyone with any savvy i'm quite positive would take this opportunity to come crashing down on his "accusers" with a barage of pictures, drawings etc. I and others could eat humble pie, and Leeway Composites would be laughing all the way to the bank!

this debate is getting my ribs know all over the world why stop??

Originally Posted by Gav

So i'll leave it at that, i'm sure Lee will come along with another vague "scoot around the subject" !

thankyou..

[Gav]

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

my 8.3 holds alot of similarities to the pant-um 25, but is not a splash as it is differant in many ways and i will show proof in a court of law if need be.

funny how your boat range all "hold similarities" to phantoms.

[fast fred]

well G L,
I think it's a good thing, that with the info hear, you got a good idea of what to look for, so you could make an informed decition for your self.

[timw]

Some of the posts seem to doubt quality of these RIBS.

I have recently seen and been in one of these Leeway RIBS, and I have to say the quality and workmanship is ABSOLUTELY SUPERB.

They deserve to sell well.

[Hightower]

Makes me laugh reading this thread.

Seems like Lee is getting increasing support for the members here.

Vendetta.....Yes it seems that way and certainly looks that way.

I haven't met Lee, but have spoken to him and dealt with an employee/partner when I bought a seat base, seems like a decent guy and business and am happy with what he supplied me.

If there are Copyright problems with the hull then I don't see that it's anyones concern other that that of the original Designer (too many people on the wind up) and if Lee says that he can proove in a court of law, then why disbelive him.

Good luck Lee.

[timw]

Well said Hightower

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by dogcatfish

Have been watching this thread with interest. Can I question you're motives JF? It seems like you're not simply against splashing...

Well spotted! unlike a good few people on here, who's only interest is saving a few quid (read, greedy & mean) I also happen to despise liars, and anyone who tries to insult my inteligence, Leeway continues to do both.

I'd like to clear up another apparent myth.

'CUT N SHUT'.

What an interesting phrase!

A term used to describe the act of taking one half of a car (the un damaged end) and welding to another, with the intension of creating a complete car, that to the untrained eye will look like an ordinary, legitimate and undamaged vehicle.

How then, does this term find it's way into boatbuilding?

The front of a Merc 500sl, is rather unlikely to blend too well with the rear of a Seat Ibiza, is it.

So, this 'Cut n Shut' hull...made from two hard boat running surfaces, how does that work?
A hull, any hull, is made up of thousands of unique curves, angles and details, deadrise angle and type, number, style and size of spray rails, beam, is it a delta or parallel hull. virtually infinite are the differences tween one and another and the chances of two different hulls being close enough to build a hybrid from are zilch. I'd go as far as to say, the only rear half of a boat that the front half of a P18 would fit (or visa-versa) is another P18!

This story of a cut n shut is pure poppycock, and another complete lie from Leeway. In fact it makes me laugh that people on this site are even using the phrase at all with respect to hull design, as is gives (in a sad and missguided way) the benifit of the doubt to leeways clear lack of understanding.


On another forum, I watched in tears as another forum member had to correct Leeways posting, where he described the hull as a 'steep vee' rather than the usual 'deep vee', and the outer most spray rail as the 'chime' rather than the 'chine'. ...quite a naval architecht in the making there me thinks.

To re-cap:

I dispise the splashing,

I dispise the bare faced lies,

And I dispise the insult to my, and many other peoples inteligence.

If he could manage to do business without the above three faults, I'd be the first to applaud him.

I concede that his ribs are clearly very cheap (even with the 10% price hike) they may even do the requird job, and thus are the ideal purchace for some of you. But be taken in by his totaly fictional story of the origins of the hull, complete with the absolute Gem of a tale about the 'cut n shut', leaves me speechles (very rare). I can only assume you're all stupid.

[ADS]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

What an interesting phrase!
The front of a Merc 500sl, is rather unlikely to blend too well with the rear of a Seat Ibiza, is it.

You never know..........Lada S-Type anyone?