Leeway

[Matt]

Ok.

[pathalla]

Is there no vehicle in the U.K. for obtaining a patent on hull design to protect someone's hard work/design? Or is the process for obtaining one too costly?

[Hugh Jardon]

Originally Posted by MadMat

I find it shocking and deeply disappointing that none of you give a shit about this, I can only suppose ignorance is bliss. I thought, and still hope, that most people here were better than that.

MadMat.......dont go labling us all just cos we have not followed your train of thought......ignorance can be replaced with lack of evidence and knowledge for sure

to be honest i suspect many peoples view is looking on in interest suspecting there is not smoke without fire but not really having any knowledge or proof to back up what is being said. Also the back and forth is quite funny to read. I personally took a look at the leeway boats and decided Osprey was for me.

If someone wants to buy a Leeway then why not. their choice

If Leeway have splashed someones hull then let the impacted person take them to court and deal with it using the proper channels.

I would certainly not jump on the band wagon of slagging off leeway as to me there is no proof presented to me allowing me to form a conclusion. So as such and like most others will sit on the sidelines watching with interest.

Do i beleive leeways phone has run off the hook and order book is filling based on this thread.....highly doubtful in my mind. Have they got publicity .....yes....but would recommend folks visit leeway and look and study the boats and form their own views, also look at the build process etc

yours

a normal guy sitting on the sidelines

[Matt]

Been tried. Tin pot laminators wind up the company to escape, start up in the same building as a new company the next week, doing the same thing - except the original designer is out of pocket for the (now defunct) court case to the tune of many thousands.

Originally Posted by pathalla

Is there no vehicle in the U.K. for obtaining a patent on hull design to protect someone's hard work/design? Or is the process for obtaining one too costly?

[Matt]

That line was good bait!
So, in your humble opinion, would it be fair to say rib.net's members are anti-splashing, but the intelligent members withold judgement about leeways boats simply because they haven't seen sufficient evidence with their own eyes? That is an entirely different viewpoint compared to some of the posts above along the lines of "who cares", which rather reminded me of the poem by Martin Niemöller.

Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

MadMat.......dont go labling us all just cos we have not followed your train of thought......ignorance can be replaced with lack of evidence and knowledge for sure

to be honest i suspect many peoples view is looking on in interest suspecting there is not smoke without fire but not really having any knowledge or proof to back up what is being said. Also the back and forth is quite funny to read. I personally took a look at the leeway boats and decided Osprey was for me.

If someone wants to buy a Leeway then why not. their choice

If Leeway have splashed someones hull then let the impacted person take them to court and deal with it using the proper channels.

I would certainly not jump on the band wagon of slagging off leeway as to me there is no proof presented to me allowing me to form a conclusion. So as such and like most others will sit on the sidelines watching with interest.

Do i beleive leeways phone has run off the hook and order book is filling based on this thread.....highly doubtful in my mind. Have they got publicity .....yes....but would recommend folks visit leeway and look and study the boats and form their own views, also look at the build process etc

yours

a normal guy sitting on the sidelines

[Jono]

Hugh (Chris? ),

The people who are commenting about the splashing of the Phantom hull have intimate knowledge of that hull and have seen the Leeway “up close and personal” . The people commenting on the build quality of one particular Leeway have also seen this boat. At least two of them are boat builders of some considerable experience. There is no need for other people to add their opinions if they have not actually seen this hull, or do not have knowledge of the hull from which the Leeway came. Worse, offer opinions having never actually seen the boats in the flesh… but we’ll put that down to over-work..
As to people having “their choice” when buying a boat, or anything come to that, of course they do….. but… is it not better for those people to have a reasonable knowledge of the origins of the product before parting with their hard earned ?…Doctors included…. Then they can choose to buy a boat that has been built with the full knowledge and consent of the designer or a “knock-off”… up to the individuals conscience, I suppose.
Most of the grief comes from the original insistence of Leeway that he actually designed the hull, which admittedly was watered down, when pushed, to cutting and shutting two hardboat hulls. His claim to have designed the boat could have easily been proven by showing a picture of the plug/buck from which he took his original mold… Why not do that and shut his “accusers” up? Even if you know nothing about hull forms you could draw your own conclusions from this.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by pathalla

Is there no vehicle in the U.K. for obtaining a patent on hull design to protect someone's hard work/design? Or is the process for obtaining one too costly?

I have patented things in the past - I came to the conclusion a patent is only as good as the lawyers you have to defend it.

There are many instances where patents should NOT be granted - the USA has drafted loads of patents recently that should never have been allowed - they have been patenting concepts rather than new ideas - witness the ongoing Blackberry lawsuits.

It is VERY difficult to come up with something truly new. For example the new design for a Joystick used on the F16 was patented but was EXACTLY the same as used on a Glasgow tram in 1898.

What is easier and more applicable in this case is a registered or copyrighted design - all you have to do is produce drawings - mark them as copyright and get them witnessed. this should prevent a direct copy.

Yes I do think taking a direct splash off a hull is disgracefull - but then again maybe Sir George Cayley would have felt the same about the Wright brothers!!!

[MarkWildey]

When Scorpion were making the 10m cabin boat Graham took me a couple of times to see the plug being made. It was a work of art and the man hours that went into making it must be in the 1000's.

For those who've seen the boats know that they are fantastic and result from design and knowledge of previous boats.

The fact that leeway can't produce any evidence seems an indication of where the design or lack of it comes from.

Given that RibNet has a very large membership having someone question your credentials amongst your prospective customers seems madness. Yet all I seem to see from him is insulting comments.

Mark

[Matt]

The quality of the scorpion plugwork is very apparent in the high quality of the hulls produced as a result. Razor sharp lines, beautifully straight edges, nice smooth curves, etc.

[Jonny Fuller]

Codders, the point you and many others seem to miss, is that unlike any other product, pioneering aeroplanes included, a glassfibre moulding is so damn easy to copy, and we're not talking about taking some measurments, or some influence, we're talking about a DIRECT MECHANICAL COPY!
When someone saw the work the wright brothers did, and decided to have a go themselves, they couldn't buy a '15 year old model', wheel it into their workshop, and with a fivers worth of release wax, and a few swift strokes of a fluffy roller and some matt, have their own Wright brothers aircraft! They had to build the fkkr from scratch, albeit with some of the learning curve removed for them by the Wright brothers hard work and research. (and bravery)

I dare say, if you'd put a couple of years hard graft, and a 100K or so, into a work of art plug & mould, then some low-life after a fast & easy buck got his hands on a second hand one, and took such a mechanical 'exact' copy (tho' of course, Leeways is actually far from exact, as Steve Baker never built a banana shaped hull) claiming the lovely sharp moulding lines, excellent handling, beautiful aesthetic qualities etc, were in fact his work, you'd wanna kill him!...I would.

Do try and see from a point of view other than that of a 'punter' who gets a cheaper boat!

Surely you're not really that shallow.

JF

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by MadMat

The quality of the scorpion plugwork is very apparent in the high quality of the hulls produced as a result. Razor sharp lines, beautifully straight edges, nice smooth curves, etc.

The plugwork is EVERYTHING!

When Steve pulled a boat from his moulds, there was no need whatsoever for any post mould work to the finish, they came from the mould with a faultless mirror finish, as i'm sure do the Scorpion products.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

Codders, the point you and many others seem to miss, is that unlike any other product, pioneering aeroplanes included, a glassfibre moulding is so damn easy to copy, and we're not talking about taking some measurments, or some influence, we're talking about a DIRECT MECHANICAL COPY!
When someone saw the work the wright brothers did, and decided to have a go themselves, they couldn't buy a '15 year old model', wheel it into their workshop, and with a fivers worth of release wax, and a few swift strokes of a fluffy roller and some matt, have their own Wright brothers aircraft! They had to build the fkkr from scratch, albeit with some of the learning curve removed for them by the Wright brothers hard work and research. (and bravery)

I dare say, if you'd put a couple of years hard graft, and a 100K or so, into a work of art plug & mould, then some low-life after a fast & easy buck got his hands on a second hand one, and took such a mechanical 'exact' copy (tho' of course, Leeways is actually far from exact, as Steve Baker never built a banana shaped hull) claiming the lovely sharp moulding lines, excellent handling, beautiful aesthetic qualities etc, were in fact his work, you'd wanna kill him!...I would.

Do try and see from a point of view other than that of a 'punter' who gets a cheaper boat!

Surely you're not really that shallow.

JF

I agree, I am left in little doubt about the origin of of Leeway's rib after having read this and previous threads. It certainly appears that he splashed a Phantom 18, and didn't make a particularly good job of it. He may have corrected the original mistake (or rough water design feature) and he may not; I would pay my money and take my choice elsewhere.

[Hugh Jardon]

MadMat and Jono,

I have never been known as someone to withhold views or be backward in coming forward. I believe this is a sensitive subject and i can not confess to knowing the hull in question so can not form an opinion i would share openly, and would not based on the thread posts on this thread, i would have to see and inspect myself etc. However personally i do have a view on all this.

I will speak for myself here.......I personally would prefer to buy a boat where i know the history of the boat or mould etc and normally i like to see the build process and form my own views on the suitability of it for my personal use. For the last two boats i have purchased i have done just that and gone along to see them in the build process of my actual boat and identify the tweaks from the norm that i desire. I tend not to believe everything i hear and tend to question most things, no matter what source and i always form my own opinions and views.

would i personally buy a splashed boat if i knew this to be the case, probably not as to me it might be a safety issue whether the boat was fit for purpose. I would prefer to buy from a known good laminator with a proven track record and history, but thats me.... and that is what i have done....

Have i purchased goods that are copies of the original in the past.......yes, but you pays your money and takes your choice, an example of a purchase is a copy of a rubiks cube thingy...from the market.....oops showing my age there

[codprawn]

No Mr fuller I am not - I know EXACTLY what you mean - but can't you see that it is also unfair to copy any other design either. The world is full of such examples - for example Hoover gets all the credit for the vacuum cleaner and Singer for the sewing machine and yet they ripped off other people's work. How many people keep on about that?

Unfair - yes
Wrong - yes
A fact of life - unfortunately also yes.

Often the inventor isn't the one who is remembered - it's the most successful business man!!!

I remember reading a story about a firm who hires out Ferraris and other supercars - they say they have often had cars back with damaged paintwork and traces of fibreglass left after people have used them to take moulds off.

If you are going to stoop low enough to copy someone elses design is it REALLY much worse to make life easier for yourself?

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by codprawn

No Mr fuller I am not - I know EXACTLY what you mean - but can't you see that it is also unfair to copy any other design either. The world is full of such examples - for example Hoover gets all the credit for the vacuum cleaner and Singer for the sewing machine and yet they ripped off other people's work. How many people keep on about that?

Unfair - yes
Wrong - yes
A fact of life - unfortunately also yes.

Often the inventor isn't the one who is remembered - it's the most successful business man!!!

I remember reading a story about a firm who hires out Ferraris and other supercars - they say they have often had cars back with damaged paintwork and traces of fibreglass left after people have used them to take moulds off.

If you are going to stoop low enough to copy someone elses design is it REALLY much worse to make life easier for yourself?

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and I hope dearly that you never wind up in the situation Steve Baker, Mike Sloggit/Don Shead/Lorne Campbell, and a few other found themselves in. I believe that if you were singularly responsible for the design, development, plugwork, tool production, and marketing of a product, including all the heartache, time and massive finacial requirments, it would be all the more annoying, I would be in tears if it were me.

Another dead funny part to this, is that when a south coast based company recently started producing a dreadfull quality copy of Mike Rings ski boats (and I do mean fkkn dreadfull) Leeway had the unbelievable cheek to contact Mike to tell him! I fkkn ask you! what on earth is going on in that boys head? Talk about hypocritical.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Jonny Fuller

We'll just have to agree to disagree, and I hope dearly that you never wind up in the situation Steve Baker, Mike Sloggit/Don Shead/Lorne Campbell, and a few other found themselves in. I believe that if you were singularly responsible for the design, development, plugwork, tool production, and marketing of a product, including all the heartache, time and massive finacial requirments, it would be all the more annoying, I would be in tears if it were me.

Another dead funny part to this, is that when a south coast based company recently started producing a dreadfull quality copy of Mike Rings ski boats (and I do mean fkkn dreadfull) Leeway had the unbelievable cheek to contact Mike to tell him! I fkkn ask you! what on earth is going on in that boys head? Talk about hypocritical.

I actually HAVE been in that very situation which is maybe why I am now more resigned to things than I used to be. Also that is why I say that a patent is pretty useless unless you have the money behind you to fight it!!!

[Gav]

Originally Posted by codprawn

also unfair to copy any other design either. The world is full of such examples - for example Hoover gets all the credit for the vacuum cleaner and Singer for the sewing machine and yet they ripped off other people's work. How many people keep on about that?

oh come on codders, a vacuum cleaner? a sewing machine? we are talking about boats! Agreed the principal is similar but we could go on forever detailing items and products that are similar??
The fact is that to reproduce certain products ie, aircraft, cars, sewing machines etc etc we are talking about a totally different level of skill and ability, whereas to take someone elses hull and mould it and call it your own is "in your face" theft! and to further that, to make it publically known that you claim to have designed from scratch, with great skill, your own hull and then put into production, i find that a pisstake! if your gonna do it at least have the decency to be upfront about it and stand by your convictions Mr Leeway!

[Hugh Jardon]

so cods


what did you patent?

Originally Posted by codprawn

I actually HAVE been in that very situation which is maybe why I am now more resigned to things than I used to be. Also that is why I say that a patent is pretty useless unless you have the money behind you to fight it!!!

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by codprawn

I actually HAVE been in that very situation which is maybe why I am now more resigned to things than I used to be. Also that is why I say that a patent is pretty useless unless you have the money behind you to fight it!!!

If people weren't so greedy, there's be little need to fight anything, the splashers wouldn't get any customers! especially with the new fangled tinterweb. There's no real need for anyone to be uninformed.

Ho Hum

[Jonny Fuller]

Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

so cods


what did you patent?

I woz gonna ask that