Lifejackets - The most important Newbie Question!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mikew4

Crossing the channel?

I agree with some of your sentiments and can be found with BA, LJ and or flotation suit on different occasions. However I wouldn't need to be crossing the chanel to chose the LJ - simply anywhere that I expected rescue to be delayed.

Why not use buoyancy aids, which are cheaper and less bulky.

prior to inflation, I would say LJs are much less bulky.

[Mextli]

Originally Posted by mikew4

What is it that you are doing that warrants a lifejacket? Crossing the channel? Why not use buoyancy aids, which are cheaper and less bulky. Both will keep you afloat. The only difference being that the lifejacket ensures your face is out of the water, in case you are knocked out.

Being knocked out happens much more easily than you'd think though

I did once knock myself out on the backrest on my SR4 after a particularily violent turn, Was wearing an LJ(By luck I didn't end up in the water, but it was close nevertheless.). Should i had been ejected wearing a buoyancy aid, I propably wouldn't be here to write about it
The entire incident happened on flat Lake Garda in may.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Mextli

Being knocked out happens much more easily than you'd think though

Sh1t happens: http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/it-had-to-happen-30800.html

Not sure how he would have fared with a BA?
Floating "face up" has a certain appeal...

[Last Tango]

You don't need to be "knocked out" to reap the benefits of an LJ over a BA.
There's every possibility you could be completely incapacitated temporarily with cold-shock and with the minimal buoyancy from a BA every wave goes over your head instead of you riding up with them.
Some interesting experiments with both on an RYA survival course should convince any doubters.

[mikew4]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

The only difference being that the lifejacket ensures your face is out of the water, in case you are knocked out.

That being the point and the mask stopping you from drinking the ogin when you are the right way up

Of course.

However, many times, a lifejacket is overkill. Depends what you are doing / where you are going / the conditions.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily in calm conditions, a buoyancy aid is more than adequate.

If you are crossing the channel, the a life jacket (auto inflate) is likely essential.

etc.

[Mextli]

Originally Posted by mikew4

Of course.

However, many times, a lifejacket is overkill. Depends what you are doing / where you are going / the conditions.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily in calm conditions, a buoyancy aid is more than adequate.

If you are crossing the channel, the a life jacket (auto inflate) is likely essential.

etc.

I strongly disagree.

Wearing a proper lifejacket (auto ones are much less bulky than BAs) in any conditions is advisable. It is like wearing a seat belt on a car. Yes you wont need it 99% of the time, but when you need it it will likely save your life.

Strange things can and do happen, even in "calm", warm water and if you fall over after having bashed your head on one of the stainless steel tubing most RIBs have in abundance, a buoyancy aid will only make it easier for the rescue services to recover your body. If you are wearing a proper, maintained LJ the chances of your survival are increased.

The sea is a dangerous enviroment.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily it is a completly different matter.

[JamesF]

My own preference would probably be for a 150N automatic lifejacket. What I actually wear is a buoyancy aid: not an auto because I routinely go in deep enough to set one off when I launch and might have to swim, and not a manual lifejacket because I don't want to have to find the toggle if I turn the boat over or get ejected. There would also be lots of other people around most of the time. I gain some chest, back and shoulder protection compared to a lifejacket at the expense of some bulkiness and, more importantly, being turned face-up.

The buoyancy aid is a compromise I make because of the type of boating I'm doing (safety cover for sailing dinghies); the same compromises are not necessarily good ones in more normal circumstances.

Proper lifejackets are also much more likely to have fittings like whistles, and crotch straps etc. Which my buoyancy aid (clearly marked 'swimmer only, sheltered waters, help at hand') also happens to have, but there aren't many like that and it comes at the expense of... well... expense. An automatic lifejacket would have cost about the same.

[mikew4]

Originally Posted by Mextli

I strongly disagree.

Wearing a proper lifejacket (auto ones are much less bulky than BAs) in any conditions is advisable. It is like wearing a seat belt on a car. Yes you wont need it 99% of the time, but when you need it it will likely save your life.

Strange things can and do happen, even in "calm", warm water and if you fall over after having bashed your head on one of the stainless steel tubing most RIBs have in abundance, a buoyancy aid will only make it easier for the rescue services to recover your body. If you are wearing a proper, maintained LJ the chances of your survival are increased.

The sea is a dangerous enviroment.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily it is a completly different matter.

We never wear buoyancy aids or lifejackets when windsurfing, even when venturing out in F8 gales and 6m high waves. We do wear a harness to hook in to lines on the boom to save the arms, and this provides some buoyancy but nothing like that of a buoyancy aid or LJ.

I have had 39 Knots out of a windsurfer before and regularly get up to 25 - 30 knots. Crashing at 30+ knots hurts a bit but you get over it.

Coming off and getting rinsed in a 6m breaking wave is character building.

Food for thought !

I guess the whole buoyancy aid / LJ thing depends on how much of a waterman you are, along with appropriate risk assessment for the forseeable conditions.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mikew4

Food for thought !

I guess the whole buoyancy aid / LJ thing depends on how much of a waterman you are, along with appropriate risk assessment for the forseeable conditions.

Of course the ones who really regret this never get the chance to share their thoughts - unless we are saying nobody ever drowns windsurfing.

I'm not sure what your final paragraph is trying to say - but it sounds like "salty old sea dogs don't need lifejackets"?

[mikew4]

Originally Posted by Poly

Of course the ones who really regret this never get the chance to share their thoughts - unless we are saying nobody ever drowns windsurfing.

I'm not sure what your final paragraph is trying to say - but it sounds like "salty old sea dogs don't need lifejackets"?

Drowning as a result of windsurfing is incredibly rare. The only instance that springs to mind was a freak accident where someones harness hook somehow managed to hook over the boom. He could not take his harness off. So he drowned hooked into the boom, under the sail. That incident is nothing to do with buoyancy. Death was down to the chap not knowing his kit - you should be able to remove your harness blindfolded and under duress. IIRC this happened in Hawaii, the windsurfing mecca.

Not at all re "salty old sea dogs don't need lifejackets". However experience counts for a lot in being able to realistically assess risk. Novices and those not confident in the water tend to over do the safety gear in my experience; which can only be a good thing. Then you get the other extreme - those experienced and cocky that think they need nothing / the minimum in inappropriate conditions.

All I am saying really is that life jackets are not a panacea, but those that wear them are fine by me. If someone comes on my RIB and wears a lifejacket where I consider it to be overkill, they will not be judged; instead their prudence will be praised.

[Last Tango]

I don't think you'll find many people who've been on an RYA "Sea Survival" course would go out with anything less than a proper 150N LJ.

The "novices" that have caught my attention have been wearing shell-suits and a 10yr old on the back of a jet ski with ordinary day wear in March........less than 20 yards before she fell of into the water at 8 degrees.

I'm sure you're wearing a wet/dry suit when you're windsurfing so you've already mitigated against the effect of cold water shock and have residual buoyancy from that.

[Xk59D]

my old man has done the sea survival course numerous times as he was a marine engineer for 35 years, he's now a full time early retired golfer though i think he had to do it every 5 years to keep his chief engineers ticket up to date....anyways-

when at sea the crew wore life jackets OR a flotation suit on deck doing normal work, if weather dictated it or location (middle of no where, literally) then they would wear suit and 275 jacket but that was a rare occurrence he said.

when i'm out (also big lad over 6ft) i use a 190 life jacket or my flotation suit, never both. part of the reason though is the 190 jacket doesn't fit over the floatation suit and the other is it isn't recommended. if you want to wear a suit and a life jacket you should get a 275 life jacket.

i found this on mullion site- (http://mullion-pfd.com/en/technical/...and-lifejacket)

A floatation garment or buoyancy aid should only be worn on their own, when working close to land and by competent swimmers or where help is close to hand.

A 150 Newton should only be used where light weight clothing is being worn and no heavy tools being carried. It is not recommended to the used with a flotation suit or a dry suit as it is possible that it will not self-right you in conjunction with this type of clothing.

A 275 Newton should be used where heavy weight clothing is being worn or tools are being carried, or when wearing a flotation suit of dry suit.

[markmullen]

Originally Posted by mikew4

Of course.

However, many times, a lifejacket is overkill. Depends what you are doing / where you are going / the conditions.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily in calm conditions, a buoyancy aid is more than adequate.

If you are crossing the channel, the a life jacket (auto inflate) is likely essential.

etc.

I disagree.

If you were looking at ghastly old fashioned lifejackets there might be an argument to make but with modern LJs being much nicer to wear the only reason not to wear one is if you fully intend to enter the water.

On the inland lifeboat I coxswain we wear buoyancy aids, as we train to enter the water, and use them for swiftwater rescue where a LJ wouldn't work, we'd trigger them every time we entered the water.

On the all weather lifeboat I have started crewing, and in my commercial work, we wear lifejackets all day, they're perfectly comfortable, and give the reassurance that if we enter the water unconscious we will get righted.

[mikew4]

Originally Posted by mikew4

Of course.

However, many times, a lifejacket is overkill. Depends what you are doing / where you are going / the conditions.

If you are in and out of the water voluntarily in calm conditions, a buoyancy aid is more than adequate.

If you are crossing the channel, the a life jacket (auto inflate) is likely essential.

etc.

Originally Posted by markmullen

I disagree.

If you were looking at ghastly old fashioned lifejackets there might be an argument to make but with modern LJs being much nicer to wear the only reason not to wear one is if you fully intend to enter the water.

On the inland lifeboat I coxswain we wear buoyancy aids, as we train to enter the water, and use them for swiftwater rescue where a LJ wouldn't work, we'd trigger them every time we entered the water.

On the all weather lifeboat I have started crewing, and in my commercial work, we wear lifejackets all day, they're perfectly comfortable, and give the reassurance that if we enter the water unconscious we will get righted.

And you have just contradicted yourself, when comparing your post to mine !