MAIB interim report on Seadogz fatality

[John Kennett]

The recommendations relate to commercial operations, but there are things here for everyone to think about.

https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/coll...loss-of-1-life

[Old seahorse]

This is a sobering reminder of how precious life is, and balancing the need for fun and thrills for many of us, with the inherent risks.
Like many here, I have had some close scrapes, not just in boating, but in other leisure pursuits, and in everyday life.
Our eldest granddaughter was a friend of Emily, the young lady who tragically lost her life in this accident. It is hard to imagine what Emily’s family are going through, if our granddaughter’s distress and sadness is anything to go by.
I still get a buzz from being out on the water, as many do.
I hope that in time, my granddaughter will feel comfortable in joining me at sea, as she once did.
Enjoy the water, and stay safe

[Matt]

Direct linky to the youtube vid :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-qzbIyz3aI

This is the exact piece of water I go boating on. I don't understand how he could possibly have not seen the buoy - it just doesn't compute. Well, I suppose it does compute if you're not paying attention. But 10 seconds not looking........that's quite a distance.

I dislike passing close by ANY object at high speed - you just never know when that object is exactly where you need to go as an escape route for something unforeseen, or as per our other recent threads about skegs and jesus bolts, you have any kind of loss of control. You can have plenty of fun wave jumping and doing fast turns without being in the vicinity "solid" buoys. An inflatable racing mark would do if you want something to round.

[willk]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

The recommendations relate to commercial operations, but there are things here for everyone to think about.

Yes indeed. I don't know any of the persons involved but as the owner of a commercial RIB from the same mould, it's certainly sobering stuff.

My coding body here in Ireland restricts all RIBs (and possibly other craft?) to 25kts. The UK insurance market has beaten a rapid retreat from commercial RIB operations following this very sad incident.

This isn't the first time a thrill ride RIB has hit something - I recall "same flag" boat collisions and an incident with a water display jet in a harbour? It seems to be a real concern.

[Matt]

I agree with you. Through no ill intent, some risks become normalised because "it was OK all the times we did it before" when in reality it's just another roll of the dice each time - sooner or later you get a 6. We're all guilty of it to a certain degree - even in the MAIB report here, the passengers had already become used to it so didn't shout out on the final time.

It's all the reasons why proper risk assessments, procedures & lessons learnt are so important - the aviation industry is an excellent example of the gold standard, and even they get it wrong sometimes.

Waterski racing is having a real nightmare these days - the chap that ran the company that used to insure all of them retired (I forget his name) - a consequence of which is that with a new/proper risk assessment all the insurance companies are thanking them for the enquiry but not able to offer cover.

[C2 RIBS]

Many will know I operate in this area and know all parties involved. I have also sat through hours of reviews which are still not completed on this tragedy.
I read some replies which suggests something that we cannot know as we were not aboard and would ask that such comments are not published.
There is an ongoing MAIB , MCA and police review of this matter and nothing should be said that could affect that process.
I would ask forum to manage replies . Thank you . Ian

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Many will know I operate in this area and know all parties involved. I have also sat through hours of reviews which are still not completed on this tragedy.
I read some replies which suggests something that we cannot know as we were not aboard and would ask that such comments are not published.
There is an ongoing MAIB , MCA and police review of this matter and nothing should be said that could affect that process.
I would ask forum to manage replies . Thank you . Ian

It was a horrible tragedy for all concerned but the MCA put out the interim report to try and highlight the issues prior to the summer. As a result I think the discussion of the report on here probably helps to serve the purpose the MCA intended.

Conjecture and opinion are the nature of these forums and the internet in general.

I'm sure the admins will remove inappropriate stuff.

[jakew009]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Many will know I operate in this area and know all parties involved. I have also sat through hours of reviews which are still not completed on this tragedy.
I read some replies which suggests something that we cannot know as we were not aboard and would ask that such comments are not published.
There is an ongoing MAIB , MCA and police review of this matter and nothing should be said that could affect that process.
I would ask forum to manage replies . Thank you . Ian

Isn’t the whole idea of the report to get people talking about it?

If he was sending a text message or staring at a plotter screen maybe that will make other operators decide to always have two staff on board, one acting as a permanent lookout.

I don’t see how any conjecture on here is going to affect the outcome of the investigation.

Edit: sorry see GuyC has already made the same point.

[spartacus]

Originally Posted by jakew009

Isn’t the whole idea of the report to get people talking about it?

Yes, that's why the MAIB issued the interim report. They know there's a potential summer season coming up for commercial RIB operators and indeed anyone operating a boat at high speed and the point is to review current working practices and make changes where necessary.

Whole thing is tragic.

[Voodoo]

My thoughts are for the Lewis family....they have to go through the whole thing time after time as investigations by MAIB / MCA take place and then the coroner and maybe criminal courts. They are suffering and I hope when all is said and all is done they manage to find some peace...

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Many will know I operate in this area and know all parties involved. I have also sat through hours of reviews which are still not completed on this tragedy.
I read some replies which suggests something that we cannot know as we were not aboard and would ask that such comments are not published.
There is an ongoing MAIB , MCA and police review of this matter and nothing should be said that could affect that process.
I would ask forum to manage replies . Thank you . Ian

I don’t see anything inappropriate in any of the replies so far. If there’s anything specific that you feel needs attention from the admin team then please use the “report post” feature and we’ll check it out.

Having said that, it would be most constructive at the moment if people use this as an opportunity to reflect on what they do rather than what someone else might have done.

[Matt]

Not discussing it means the lessons don't get learnt - and the lessons are applicable to every operator of fast craft of which members here are a large %, not just commercial operators.

The facts of the MAIB report are well stated. There are some gaps that the MAIB haven't yet answered - but in the absence of them having the answer, absolutely, yes, let's speculate. Or more precisely, let's look at all the possible reasons that could fill the 10s prior to the collision and work out what we, as fellow boat users, will do to mitigate that risk from happening to ourselves.

The amount of stuff we all learn from others is large. A few years back a speedboat was coming back in the dark and collided at a good speed with another large buoy. What was the learning - don't put your GPS waypoint exactly on a navigation buoy. Seems obvious with hindsight - but I hadn't though of it and it took someone else messing up for me to realise it.

I believe the MAIB effectively rules out medical or mechanical failure and the footage is pretty clear. But even if mechanical or medical does turn out to be the cause, the same learnings will also apply.

So for whatever reason the helm wasn't able to avoid the mark - yes, let's speculate every possibility so that everyone can learn. If he was distracted, for whatever reason - let's acknowledge we can all be guilty of that, learn the lessons and operate our boats in a manner that mitigates that risk.

Hushing it up, not discussing, not debating is counterproductive to everyone. And nothing we say here could affect that process - nobody responding is engaged as an expert witness.

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Many will know I operate in this area and know all parties involved. I have also sat through hours of reviews which are still not completed on this tragedy.
I read some replies which suggests something that we cannot know as we were not aboard and would ask that such comments are not published.
There is an ongoing MAIB , MCA and police review of this matter and nothing should be said that could affect that process.
I would ask forum to manage replies . Thank you . Ian

[C2 RIBS]

I have sent a response to John on area of sub judice. I stand by my request.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I have sent a response to John on area of sub judice. I stand by my request.

Have you sent one to The MAIB too?
The MAIB have released an interim report for discussion. This is now in the public domain. Do you consider that Sub-Judice also?

[Matt]

Just off the back of this report I'm going to make 2 changes to the way I operate my boat:

1. Its bow goes sky high when I get up on the plane and I can't see clear ahead at all for about 10s. I can mitigate it by dropping the tabs fully, but I usually don't bother because it's only 10s or so and I check the way is clear before opening the throttles. But I'm doing maybe 20+mph by the time the bow is fully back down. So, Tabs.

2. I have my helm position very low - as a learning (including the details that weren't in the MAIB report!!) from the Kevin Edmundson accident and to put as much boat structure inbetween the crew and "other stuff", but also as a function of protecting the crew from a stuff and looking at many of the accident reports from yesteryear vs crew being very exposed. I may have over corrected though and will raise the front seats by an inch to improve forward visibility at low planing speeds.

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Have you sent one to The MAIB too?
The MAIB have released an interim report for discussion. This is now in the public domain. Do you consider that Sub-Judice also?

MAIB are part of process. To help you understand where I a coming from I sat on the MAIB review team on this . I have made a simple request and it is based upon natural justice.
I have emailed Ribnet with reasoning but not surprised at some responses.
This request is based around the deceased family and also all involved in the judicial process. Respect that if nothing else

[mhill]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

MAIB are part of process. To help you understand where I a coming from I sat on the MAIB review team on this . I have made a simple request and it is based upon natural justice.
I have emailed Ribnet with reasoning but not surprised at some responses.
This request is based around the deceased family and also all involved in the judicial process. Respect that if nothing else

I really cant understand what is being said that is so wrong, MAIB have published a interim report to promote conversation and change of use / practise.

[Matt]

I assume the issue is my use of the phrase "not paying attention". I used the word distracted on the latter post. I'm not trying to make enemies, I'm happy to retract that phrase since it is conjecture that could be inflammatory in the absence of more facts.

But the MAIB report does say : "because the RIB’s skipper was concentrating on
conducting high speed manoeuvres in close proximity to another vessel and did not see the fixed
navigational mark".

The sole purpose of my posts is to ask the question "what can we all do to make sure we don't make the same mistake".

[Poly]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

I have emailed Ribnet with reasoning but not surprised at some responses.

C2 - I'm assuming you PM'd John (and he may have already replied), but just to reiterate if there is something of concern the fastest way to get it removed is to hit report post because then all the admin team will get alerted - if it's obvious we will deal with it immediately if it's less obvious we may discuss before removing or if we see fit temporarily remove pending someone else making the final decision.

[willk]

Originally Posted by Matt

I assume the issue is my use of the phrase "not paying attention".

I wouldn't assume anything of the sort, IIWY. Ian/C2 had a bit of a meltdown here a few years ago and this is his first serious foray back into the thick of things here. He is obviously emotionally invested in this case and will be more sensitive to our comments than may appear reasonable. I fully get this - I once had to lug a client down four flights of stairs in a body bag. For the next 10 years I couldn't look at a flopping arm without getting quite anxious...