MAIB Report - 2 RIBS Collide - Power Turns

[SPR]

Hi All,

Just released today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/o...lyer-published

and Flyer:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...y-on-rib-tours

regards

S.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by SPR

Hi All,

Just released today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/o...lyer-published

and Flyer:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...y-on-rib-tours

regards

S.

Looks like we're in someone's Sights... again!
...You can make all the regs and safety measure rules you like.....you'll never never ever overcome Human incompetence and/or low IQ!...Fact.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Looks like we're in someone's Sights... again!

...You can make all the regs and safety measure rules you like.....you'll never never ever overcome Human incompetence and/or low IQ!...Fact.

I've only skimmed the flyer - but the maib do seem to be considering that - rather than sea with the actual cause of the incident (skippers crashing into each other whilst intentionally doing right turns) they are proposing that paying passengers shouldn't be sitting on the tubes where they are likely to get hit in a collision. i.e. They should assume the humans get it wrong and use the design to protect as much as possible.

[Andy_Rs600]

There has been a longstanding trend (and I think we all knew what was coming) towards a regulation change that you can only code a vessel for the number of seats you have. In many way's it is sensible although I'm not sure how the commercial dive RIBs will get on...

What worries me about this is that of the 7 recommendations 4 are about RIB seating when in fact the injury could (and probably would) have occurred if the person hit had been in a proper seat. Normally the MAIB reports read very sensibly but this seems lie they have taken it as an opportunity to advance on objective unrelated to the main cause of the incident.

What to me seems far more important is that 2 very experienced commercial skippers didn't appear to realise that driving theirs boats head on at each other constitutes at least a moderately risky operation and they should probably work out ahead of time how to avoid hitting each other...

[Andre]

For sure interesting reading not only for other operators but also for the manufactures of seasafari type ribs and MCA approved surveyors . As Andy_Rs600 has pointed out there are number of seating recommendations a one of which is that a grab handle should be at least at chest height. This was also mentioned in the Cardiff incident MIAB report . At the time when this was brought up on RibNet and this was a good few years ago I even mentioned that Parker had a similar incident in Poland and they then introduced as standard high grab handles for the forward passengers, see attached photo

I am yet to see a UK built seasafari rib with high grab handles for the forward seated passengers . Here I would also blame the MCA approved surveyor for not ensuring these are fitted. I know there is no regulation as yet only recommendation for such but nevertheless why not comply . I agree that if a rib is coded for 12 passengers these should be seated on jockey or bench seats only . The operator here bought a cheaper version seasafari rib and still got it coded for 12 passengers. This is for sure wrong.

By the way in Portugal the commercial ribs can carry 18 passengers and as we know Portugal is in the EC

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Poly

I've only skimmed the flyer - but the maib do seem to be considering that - rather than sea with the actual cause of the incident (skippers crashing into each other whilst intentionally doing right turns) they are proposing that paying passengers shouldn't be sitting on the tubes where they are likely to get hit in a collision. i.e. They should assume the humans get it wrong and use the design to protect as much as possible.

Design and engineering with safety in mind is ofcourse always to be welcomed...
But Two large Heavy RIBs...(or whatever!) full of Holiday maker/passengers colliding at speed is always going to do people Damage!
Using proper and really PUNATIVE penalties under PRESENT legislation for this type of Behaviour...and the subsequent publicity) would do a lot more to Curtail avoidable accidents like the one we are discussing...and be A LOT more immediate!

I suspect it'll be more recommendations...more Red Tape and more cost as usuall...with little or no effect on the Feclkless Drivers/company's who are REALLY to Blame.
These incidents also have the potential to shine a light on the Liesure RIB user..with unknown consequences long term.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Andre

I am yet to see a UK built seasafari rib with high grab handles for the forward seated passengers .

Emm... I take it you didn't look at he pictures of the two ribs involved then (both Humbers made in the UK). Both have a rail in front of the front seat.

Here I would also blame the MCA approved surveyor for not ensuring these are fitted. I know there is no regulation as yet only recommendation for such but nevertheless why not comply

So you are criticising the MCA surveyor for only applying the rules as they stand and not making them up as they go along?

I agree that if a rib is coded for 12 passengers these should be seated on jockey or bench seats only . This is for sure wrong.

I understand why you say that but consider: if I want to code a dive rib that will take 8 divers 1 mile off shore, driven responsibly at 25 knots max, and never in really silly conditions because divers won't be recreational diving in those, and I'm not doing silly tricks or aiming to excite/scare my pax, why would I need to buy a massive rib that have jockeys for all (especially if the same divers can go out in their club rib the next weekend sitting on the tubes).

The same coding rules apply to all sorts of boats used for all sorts of things. e.g. this little ferry http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4VT_V5rAZx...Islands+09.JPG
Just as the coding doesn't apply to any sports done from the boat, e.g. water skiing, diving etc I'm not convinced it should really apply to extreme uses an operator decides to put a vessel to. Now if it is being used as a thrill ride then maybe it should have to comply to the same standards as roller coasters etc!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Using proper and really PUNATIVE penalties under PRESENT legislation for this type of Behaviour...and the subsequent publicity) would do a lot more to Curtail avoidable accidents like the one we are discussing...and be A LOT more immediate!

make up your mind:

Originally Posted by Maximus

...You can make all the regs and safety measure rules you like.....you'll never never ever overcome Human incompetence and/or low IQ!...Fact.

The MAIB are not there to prosecute though - they are there to make recommendations to avoid future accidents. The choice of prosecution will rest with Procurator Fiscal based on any report from the MCA. The MAIB report doesn't mean there won't be a prosecution (that may even be why there is surprisingly little said about the human errors involved).

[Andre]

Originally Posted by Poly

Emm... I take it you didn't look at he pictures of the two ribs involved then (both Humbers made in the UK). Both have a rail in front of the front seat.

So you are criticising the MCA surveyor for only applying the rules as they stand and not making them up as they go along?

I understand why you say that but consider: if I want to code a dive rib that will take 8 divers 1 mile off shore, driven responsibly at 25 knots max, and never in really silly conditions because divers won't be recreational diving in those, and I'm not doing silly tricks or aiming to excite/scare my pax, why would I need to buy a massive rib that have jockeys for all (especially if the same divers can go out in their club rib the next weekend sitting on the tubes).

The same coding rules apply to all sorts of boats used for all sorts of things. e.g. this little ferry http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4VT_V5rAZx...Islands+09.JPG
Just as the coding doesn't apply to any sports done from the boat, e.g. water skiing, diving etc I'm not convinced it should really apply to extreme uses an operator decides to put a vessel to. Now if it is being used as a thrill ride then maybe it should have to comply to the same standards as roller coasters etc!

Sorry Poly but I did look at the photos and cannot agree with you regarding the hand rails. Diving and seasafari ribs are two different animals

PS: and yes before you ask I have been to spec savers

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Andre

Sorry Poly but I did look at the photos and cannot agree with you regarding the hand rails.

you don't agree those boats are:
- UK built?
- Have handrails in front of the front seat passenger?

By the way the irony that the picture you used to illustrate the best rib for sea safari seating - seems to have two people (crew?) perched on the tubes was not lost on me, but I thought I'd let it pass.

Diving and seasafari ribs are two different animals

thats kind of my point - although actually I don't think its seasafaris that are the problem - its the "thrill" ride part of it rather than the safari part. But the regs don't make any distinction between the use of the boat as a commuter ferry, a way of getting to a work site, a boat for recreational diving or fishing, charter for racing, dolphin or scenery watching, or aiming to scare the bejesus out of a stag party. Vessels are assessed for their suitability for the water they will be used in, not for the purpose to which they might happen to be put. It is surely for the operator (and skipper) to have assess that.

[Andre]

Originally Posted by Poly

you don't agree those boats are:
- UK built?
- Have handrails in front of the front seat passenger?

By the way the irony that the picture you used to illustrate the best rib for sea safari seating - seems to have two people (crew?) perched on the tubes was not lost on me, but I thought I'd let it pass.

thats kind of my point - although actually I don't think its seasafaris that are the problem - its the "thrill" ride part of it rather than the safari part. But the regs don't make any distinction between the use of the boat as a commuter ferry, a way of getting to a work site, a boat for recreational diving or fishing, charter for racing, dolphin or scenery watching, or aiming to scare the bejesus out of a stag party. Vessels are assessed for their suitability for the water they will be used in, not for the purpose to which they might happen to be put. It is surely for the operator (and skipper) to have assess that.

you are correct perhaps not the best example of a photo but a manufacturer cannot control the operator each time he takes out passengers. I posted the photo to show the grab handle for the forward passengers. Perhaps you did not see it
as for the second comment I agree it is made in the UK cos UK made rib but here all I can say more is "no comment"

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Poly

make up your mind:


The MAIB are not there to prosecute though - they are there to make recommendations to avoid future accidents. The choice of prosecution will rest with Procurator Fiscal based on any report from the MCA. The MAIB report doesn't mean there won't be a prosecution (that may even be why there is surprisingly little said about the human errors involved).

We live as I expect you'll agree.. in an imperfect world...with that in mind,it's all about "Damage limitation!"

[spartacus]

Interesting and sobering reading, especially as conditions were calm with good visibility. Unfortunately this sort of accident has the potential for trickle down legislation for the competent and conscientious leisure user because of a red arrow fly-past manoeuvre that shouldn't have been initiated in the first place. What's equally worrying is one of the vessels left port without the skipper wearing his kill cord.

Personally I'd like to see dedicated seats for all commercially coded fast ribs for the number of passengers on board with wing back back supports and hand holds.

[Promarine11]

Fascinating first read on this forum. A worrying list of concerns also. That organisations MCA/RYA that code for safely operated commercial use would not seem to ensure on coded inspection that the specified use is established. For sure high speed pleasure trips need to ensure all occupants are safely seated. When a dive operation is transferring occupants with their full compliment of divers you would very often expect the divers safely seated and secure hand holds at a safe speed. I would not suggest more regulations more a defined inspection ( so as not to 'overun' and curtail good businesses) to ensure the right type of vessel is undertaking properly in the right conditions along with competent commercial skippers. With very many performance possibilities today it is ever more important the right companies and vessels are free to safely operate in safe environments. Unfortunately organisations make the rule changes thsy need addressing. That's my five pence worth!

[GuyC]

Possibly rather than specifying seats for all occupants, it could be controlled by acceleration limits that would be monitored via a tachograph type recorder. If passengers are sat on suspension seats, then the acceleration limits could be relatively high. If there are people on tubes, then the acceleration limits are reduced accordingly.

It wouldn't prevent collisions which was a major factor in this incident but it would allow responsible operations that don't ordinarily seat passengers to continue.

Skippers would have to train to understand how sea conditions affect vessel motions and how to react accordingly.

It would be interesting to know how many passenger miles are carried out like this and how many incidents there are. Is it any more unsafe that other forms of transport.

A sad incident for all concerned.

[the_fifer]

Originally Posted by Andre

I am yet to see a UK built seasafari rib with high grab handles for the forward seated passengers

Andre - I suggest you do your research before making such a bold comment! Ribcraft (UK Built) do boats with high grab handles for the passengers!

[willk]

Originally Posted by the_fifer

Andre - I suggest you do your research before making such a bold comment! Ribcraft (UK Built) do boats with high grab handles for the passengers!

In fairness - he said he hadn't SEEN one. Which gives him quite a bit of wriggle room...

[Andre]

Originally Posted by the_fifer

Andre - I suggest you do your research before making such a bold comment! Ribcraft (UK Built) do boats with high grab handles for the passengers!

I did not say Ribcraft did not make such only "I am yet to see a UK built seasafari rib with high grab handles for forwarded seated passengers


As it happens I have not seen any - when I do then I will have

[jwalker]

Andre, would you like to define 'high' so that we know what exactly you're talking about?

[Andre]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Andre, would you like to define 'high' so that we know what exactly you're talking about?

I am only talking about the grab handles on jockey seats for the two forward seated passengers , see photo in post 5. the passenger is not bent over to hold on to the grab handle and if you recall the Cardiff report that is what was mentioned.