MAIB report on Cardiff Bay YC rib incident

[D Mainwaring]

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...IBs_Report.pdf

[Fenlander]

I don't usually wander into the RIB section being "just" a sibber but I've read through this report over a coffee break. I'm truly amazed those responsible for the care of other's children could be so lax in so many basic areas of sea and personal safety... staggering. I don't hold any formal qualifications related to the sea but I wouldn't have made any of the mistakes detailed in the report.

Our teen girls go on frequent school trips with varying degrees of potential danger and I try to have confidence those responsible for their care will take trip safety seriously.

Does make you wonder when you read reports like this though.

[mark_j]

Shocking, even worse considering some faults were highlighted.

[m chappelow]

i read it this morning about 2 am ,
,as was said in the report lack of equipment ,nav lights not thought to be required ect ect ,and its usually these sort of people that will get on their high horse and bleat on about others using boats and not having any had any training or some sort of qualification .

looking back over the years there has been some bad incidents reported on the m.a.i.b web site involving youth or children that were under the supervision of others ,

Though not boat related thoughts went back whilst reading the report when my eldest daugter was on a 2 day residential school trip many years ago and a class mate fell down a waterfall and was killed ,,all we got was a telephone call to all the parents saying that there had been a tragic accident and a pupil had died, can we go into school and wait ,we cannot say at this stage who it is ,,the school kept all the parents waiting for over 4 hours whilst the coach returned back ,just imagine the scene,and thoughts ,, is it our child ,,is it your child ,is it their child .it wasent until last year my wife would let any of our of our back on any school trip .

my youngest daughter also knows one of the girls that was involved when the cadet boat overturned in scotland a few years back ,we only found this out when she visited us and flatly refused to wear a lifejacket when we put our boat on the local canal when i asked her why she then came out with the story .

and regarding the qualified ,a month before i took my pb2 test, i had to rescue the guy that tested me when he ran agound on a training wall .
mart.

[jezza2011]

Interesting read.

"There are currently no regulations preventing persons in RIBs from sitting on the
buoyancy tubes, and at low speeds this could be deemed acceptable. However,
at high speeds, passengers who are not seated in appropriate seating have an
increased risk of falling overboard and, as highlighted in recent MAIB reports, are at
significant risk of suffering musculoskeletal injuries."

I have never had a rib with seats.
Have always sat on the tube at all speeds and sea states and the only time I actually hurt my back was sitting on the jockey seat.

No nav lights at night is just plane daft!

[willk]

I've seen some terrible risks taken with children in outdoor pursuits over the years, generally by well meaning types who think that nothing is likely to go wrong. Two in particular will always stay with me:

1. A group of about 12 kids under the age of ten being brought around a bay on a 6m RIB, at speed, sitting on the tubes with no LJs, only one guy on the boat, helming from a forward console. None of the kids spoke English, the helm spoke only English. I was horrified as I was onsite to assist with associated events.

2. A group of teen-aged girls (early teens) brought "hiking" by some scouty type lads (Yoof Leaders). The hike was into the Comeraghs (800m). The girls wore jeans, trainers and so-forth. The leaders had no maps, compass, torches, GPS etc etc. The mist came down. They got lost. It got dark. They descended into the wrong (isolated) valley at 0300. You can imagine the scene.

In both cases, no-one was injured OR punished. I'd imagine that the persons responsible would wonder what all the fuss is about - sure no-one got hurt!

[willk]

This one gas been brewing...

As a diver, my first "tube seat" was on a Lifeguard SIB in 1988. It had a 40HP and just about planed with it's 6 divers OB. No-one had RIBs and many D.O.s actually didn't approve of them as "they can't go where inflatables can" And the SIBs were certainly safe, at those meagre speeds...

But we all knew it was OK to tube ride on ribby things. And the boats got bigger and the engines followed.

I hurt my back and arm on a 6m 115hp RIB, tube riding, at about 22kts.

I certainly wouldn't fancy tube riding at 40kts. Imagine falling back into water at that speed - a snapped neck I'd guess.

[Poly]

Well on the one hand I am sitting here thinking "how can all those cock ups happen" and on the other I am thinking "individually I can think of situations where almost all of the "apparent" problems" might have been the case on RIBs I've come into contact with at training centres/clubs over the last 20 yrs. As a parent I don't necessarily expect those I trust my children in to take "innordinate' levels of care in looking after my children, and so in isolation I could probably forgive unlit-dark-coloured buoyancy aids, no vhf, relatively inexperienced helms, no "grab bag" with safety kit etc, all combined seems sloppy BUT no nav lights seems totally stupid. If it was an oversight (e.g. hadn't thought it would be dark so early, he didn't realise they would take so long to be fed etc or forgot the club boats don't have them) then an improvised solution using a torch/lantern to provide and all round light and low speed would have been easy enough to arrange, some cheap flashing LEDs from halfords/tesco would have made them more visible - although not colreg compliant.

I wonder what others think of the buoyancy aids versus lifejackets argument at night on this passage (in an enclosed sheltered bay). Personally I think the MAIB may have got that one wrong again. All the kids had buoyancy aids. They use them regularly and so will be pretty well fitting. Lifejackets in child sizes would require a not insignificant outlay, and if gas inflation would require proper maintainence/inspection routines - which by the sounds of things is unlikely to be the case in this setting. Likewise with lights - although the argument "for" is much clearer. They would also need to be properly fitted which I'd bet they wouldn't be in reality on this sort of journey! The MAIB reads a lot into the RYA guidance which probably wasn't written with Cardiff Bay in mind when it said lifejackets were recommended on ribs. The general guidance is Buoyancy aids are appropriate in Sheltered Waters when help is close at hand. Cardiff Bay with 4 ribs out appears to tick those boxes to me. Perhaps a better plan would have been to issue high vis jackets to be worn over their buoyancy aids for the trip at night? These are available very cheaply in child sizes from places like ikea and would have added to visibility of the boat as well as any PAX in the water.

As for sitting on the tubes I am also not convinced the risk to PAX was significantly enhanced by sitting on the tubes. The boats weren't out wave jumping, if driven responsibly, in relatively sheltered waters then I think sailing club ribs (which usually have minimal seating to provide deck space for casualty working, and avoiding entaglement in rigging/racing marks etc) are fine for "ferrying" people sitting on tubes - I've done it both as driver and PAX and never felt it was a high risk position. Like many club ribs, these weren't that fast (Max speed 25 knots, prob 20 at collision time) Although the MAIB report implies previous incidents with tube-sitters getting musculoskeletal injury from poor seating - infact none of the cited reports involved people sitting on tubes. Accident investigations from other collisions suggests you don't get off "scot free" sitting on a seat - as you are likely to be propelled into steelwork/console etc. Does a squishy tube actually provide a degree of suspension? Afterall 20 yrs ago it was the norm...

Finally, the cynic in me, (and knowing the sort of parents who are likely to have sent their darlings to an Oppie Coaching weekend) wonders if the severity of the injuries is probably exaggerated to some extent to support the inevitable insurance claims... ...that said I think it was lucky that it wasn't a much more serious outcome.

[wavelength]

not convinced about the risk of sitting on a trube given the shock absorbing properties compared to a hard seat. And it doesnt have to be at speed to give a nasty back injury..the worst I have seen happened on a coastguard Ribcraft 5.75m gp boat at little more than idling speed when the boat fell off a breaking wave and a visitor (non cg personel) hurt his back whilst sitting on the back pod. A week in hospital and a cracked vertebra.
The whole thing looks like a shambles of inadequate kit (no lights, not even a light stick, on a buoyancy aid in the dark and no torches is indefensible), inadequate organisation, and inadequate leadership with youngsters being allowed to show off to their peers whilst driving powerboats.
But in the event of an accident how many things that some of us take for granted and perhaps cut corners with or have forgotten now and then (c'mon we have all done it-well I know I have), would also not bear close scrutiny. Perhaps we all need to look closely............I see a couple of things I need to do better already.

[Poly]

Several years later and it appears this is still haunting those involved:

BBC News - Sailors cleared in Cardiff Bay boat crash trial

[whisper]

That is an old one, I read that report a long time ago...

[Mollers]

http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollection...%20Summary.pdf


I've known Mother and son for many years. Another 'tube' ride with an RYA instructor.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by whisper

That is an old one, I read that report a long time ago...

Yes it was reported here a long time ago. The case has just gone to court - hence new post on old thread today.

[whisper]

Yes my post was agreeing with you...

[ShinyShoe]

Fine now set: BBC News - Cardiff Bay Yacht Club fined £40,000 over boat crash

£40k for the club plus nearly £15k in costs and 120hours community service plus costs for the chief instructor.

Thats going to make a few sailing clubs sit up and think a bit about their risk assessments I suspect.

[Nos4r2]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Fine now set: BBC News - Cardiff Bay Yacht Club fined £40,000 over boat crash

£40k for the club plus nearly £15k in costs and 120hours community service plus costs for the chief instructor.

Thats going to make a few sailing clubs sit up and think a bit about their risk assessments I suspect.

It's about time given some of the extreme knobbery I've seen from WAFI's let loose in RIBs.
Most of the ones I've seen are so appalling it's as if they get a kick out of getting rib users a bad name.