Makes me cringe

[C2 RIBS]

I accept none of us here appear to have been present on this event. Looking again at the vid, the man in the water is struggling to maintain his position and in danger of being swept away beneath the Cat.
The angle of camera as Chris says looks very close to engine and body and with ropes and sails in the way a real issue for prop tangling and stopping the engine.

I also contradict methods. I also sailed dinghys, yachts and windsurfed for 40 plus years. The main aim for safety boats is to ensure crew safety and this guy hangs on as boat is towed away- Agree tow away looked well done given the circs- still advocate boat stays in place until crew sorted in this case. Looking at wind and tide and how busy I would probably leave it to calmer of more powerful craft available to ease it of

Even when pulled clear of Cat there is another capsized double crewed dinghy washing down towards the boat under tow and they still have the man being dragged alongside his upturned craft.

Perhaps one of our expert trainers can comment- Not the training I was given for safety cover

[Dan Gurney]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

the man in the water is struggling to maintain his position and in danger of being swept away beneath the Cat.

Not seeing that in the vid. I see a man actively involved in the extraction of his boat. He can be seen hanging off the cat's mooring line with one hand and it looks like he's attaching the tow rope with the other. Certainly doesn't look like someone hanging on for grim death. The other crew member is seen with the green tow rope in his mouth maneuvering towards his dinghy presumably with the intention of securing for tow. Neither look concerned about being swept away. They may not be aware of how much danger they are in but how do you rescue someone in that position who doesn't want to be rescued or doesn't feel he needs to be, whilst simultaneously refusing to assist with the 'task at hand' (from the dinghy sailors point of view). I suspect (though obviously can't be sure since I wasn't there) that if the safety boat cox had invited the dinghy crew to come aboard they'd have said bugger off, I need to get my boat out of there! So you'd end up having a debate about the best/safest course of action with a man in the water whilst trying to hold station up wind of him.

[Starovich]

Personally...

There is no way the person in the water will be able to move the capsized boat upwind/current swimming.
The only outcome with no assistance is both will go under/between/round the anchored vessels.

Priority 1 is people ,the casualty and you and crew .

Stand off upwind/tide (possibly anchored) of the casualty throw/float a line back to the person, pull them clear.
or
Go in nose first if you think you wont swamp the boat reversing away, that will give you 4m+ of clearance from the prop.

Assess the situation if its safe to deal with the boat, again, bow in or anchor depending on the situation attach a line and tow the boat away upwind.

[alystra]

Well, having looked at it again, I'm inclined to agree with Clamchowder. The dinghy sailor is not struggling to stay afloat, he is struggling to extricate his boat from the catamaran. That's what he needs help with and after a quick conversation (presumably to check the sailor is ok), the rescue boat does just that.

The situation was complicated by the other dinghy capsizing to windward and you can see the rescue boat skipper assess the problem and decide to tow his dinghy, and sailor, as quickly as he could out of the way.

No doubt, when in clearer water, the rescue boat released the tow and then stood by to allow the dinghy skipper to attempt to right his craft and sail on, or (more likely, I feel in such conditions) ask to be picked up.

As I see it, up till now we have the equivalent of a PAN PAN situation - someone with a problem that is not immediately life threatening, but which may develop into such later.

At the beginning, had the dinghy sailor let go of his boat and drifted under the deck of the catamaran and away astern of it, then that would be the MAYDAY equivalent. The rescue boat would, I'm sure, have then plucked the man out of the water before returning to the dinghy.

The unsteady pictures were taken with a long lens, so distances between boats are very foreshortened. We really don't know how far from the sailor they were. Certainly the RIB skipper was watching very closely.

As a competitive dinghy sailor for many of my younger years, there was nothing worse than being approached by an overzealously crewed safety boat getting in the way of me righting my boat and getting on with the race.

The rescue boat did check first that the sailor was ok, then carried out an extrication manoeuvre that cleared the sailor and his boat away from immediate danger. Well done in very difficult conditions and to my mind entirely appropriate.

[andyxs]

+1 I think this was a good rescue, Just because he is in the water doesn't mean he is in imminent danger he is in a wetsuit with a Bouyancy aid and is totally fine, their was good communication between the rib and the dinghy sailor and they got the job done leaving the boat their and driving off to come back later would allow the situation to get worse.

[simsy]

I would not personally approach the man in the water in reverse gear, as some have suggested, in those conditions, the performance of a medium sized rib in reverse is relatively poor. You risk making a sporting situation into a dangerous one.

I am sure we all respect the power boat helms decisions, just wish to learn from them. Thats my position anyway.

[Starovich]

Well, having looked at it again, I'm inclined to agree with Clamchowder. The dinghy sailor is not struggling to stay afloat, he is struggling to extricate his boat from the catamaran. That's what he needs help with and after a quick conversation (presumably to check the sailor is ok), the rescue boat does just that.

With a BA on he is always going to float, being pinned/under/between 2 boats is a much more dangerous issue. Sails Rigging and glass can be repaired.

No doubt, when in clearer water, the rescue boat released the tow and then stood by to allow the dinghy skipper to attempt to right his craft and sail on, or (more likely, I feel in such conditions) ask to be picked up.

Towing a boat with a person clinging on is not a good idea, its easy to get caught in rigging or sheets, as the boat turtles (which almost all will do with someone clinging on to its topside), then you have an upturned boat with someone potentially underneath trapped in rigging.

As a competitive dinghy sailor for many of my younger years, there was nothing worse than being approached by an overzealously crewed safety boat getting in the way of me righting my boat and getting on with the race.

I think being wrapped around a moored boat in a strong current is not conducive to winning a race. Safety boat crews are their for your safety and are volunteers without which you cannot race, in safety situations there word should be final, they have an overview competitors don't.

The rescue boat did check first that the sailor was ok, then carried out an extrication manoeuvre that cleared the sailor and his boat away from immediate danger. Well done in very difficult conditions and to my mind entirely appropriate.

Partial agree, however, this kind of video is a great tool for dissecting and pointing out things we can all learn from, for me the engine got too close to a person considering the strength of the tide (easy to miss judge) and towing a boat and person in/on the capsized boat is not a good idea.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Safety boat crews are their for your safety and are volunteers without which you cannot race, in safety situations there word should be final, they have an overview competitors don't.

The evidence from this thread is that people here don't believe that Safety boat crew are infallible - which would appear to contradict the logic behind the part I highlighted in bold.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Poly

The evidence from this thread is that people here don't believe that Safety boat crew are infallible - which would appear to contradict the logic behind the part I highlighted in bold.

In my experience some sailors over play their abilities especially during races, too many times I've seen people refusing assistance/advice only to be hauled out 10 minutes later looking very bedraggled or dragged off the lee shore with broken gear.

I am not saying every Safety boat crew is perfect, or that the correct decision is always made, but then you could say the same about any sporting ref.

What you you rather have an over zealous crew or a lax one that fails to act until its too late?
Better to act early and have to say sorry than act late and have no one to say sorry too.

[captnjack]

I'm not seeing the prop danger here. To me, if they backed down too much they were going to foul the prop in the dinghy not hit the sailor in the water. At least it looked to me that he was "protected" by the dinghy he was clinging to.

Pulling him free using the capsized black dinghy seems like a 2-for-1 to me. Free the boat from entanglement so the sailor can right it himself or continue to tow it in. For the time being he seemed perfectly capable of holding onto the black dinghy until it was free and a safer/easier approach to to remove him from the water could be done.

Going bow in and then trying to back out with that wind/tide would not be my approach at all.

[9D280]

Back in my laser days I managed to gain lots of places & in one case almost win (curses - someone sailed faster than me! ) simply due to superior capsize drill.

Couple of observations having guessed what was going on since this afternoon ( interesting reading all your comments what I perceived I was going to see matched up pretty well with the vid tonight) but......

1) I have to agree - that was a rescue boat - dinghy crew combined effort. Remember the bloke in the water might have been off the rescue boat - these guys are usually dinghy sailors too & will expect to jump in to assist as & when required so wear wetsuits & buoyancy aids.....

2) I think the apparent length of the tow rope is somewhat foreshortened. look at both the wake & the way the transom of the rib move - there's not a snowball's chance that would happen with a short tow, and if I were the helm of the rib I'd be a tad concerned about prop fouling both on the mooring & the dinghy's sheets etc. on a short tow anyway. I reckon the rib is a lot further towards the camera than the pic might imply.....

3) once clear of the yacht in that wind & tide the bloke in the water is well clear of the prop - even on a short tow - it's not like he's going to rapidly drift towards the rib!

4) if the guy in the water can hang onto a mooring lne with one hand & tie on a tow rope with his teeth / other hand I would suggest he probably isn't injured! Sometimes the rescue boat crew dive in to assist. (see observation 1)




Just observations, but having been on both sides of that sort of game.......

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

I am not saying every Safety boat crew is perfect, or that the correct decision is always made, but then you could say the same about any sporting ref.

safety boat crew are not not (usually / when properly resourced) "referees". I'm not suggesting that safety boats shouldn't have the ability to end someone's race (at which point they may be more willing to cooperate) but I am wary of the idea that sailors should just do as they are told.

What you you rather have an over zealous crew or a lax one that fails to act until its too late?
Better to act early and have to say sorry than act late and have no one to say sorry too.

depends what 'acting' is - if just involves intervening then its fine, but all intervention carries some risk; if safety boat crew start acting like they are infallible and ordering dinghy sailors around it is potentially dangerous when the sailor has a reasonable/rational concern.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by captnjack

I'm not seeing the prop danger here. To me, if they backed down too much they were going to foul the prop in the dinghy not hit the sailor in the water.

If they fouled the prop they become another casualty to be dealt with, pinned by the tide over the top of a capsized dinghy and a sailor in the water.

At least it looked to me that he was "protected" by the dinghy he was clinging to.

For how long, no one can tell he could have been pulled under the boats by the tide, through all the rigging at any point.

Pulling him free using the capsized black dinghy seems like a 2-for-1 to me. Free the boat from entanglement so the sailor can right it himself or continue to tow it in.

Right up until he gets tangled in the rigging then you could end up towing the boat that is towing him by the ankle.

For the time being he seemed perfectly capable of holding onto the black dinghy until it was free and a safer/easier approach to to remove him from the water could be done.

Again how long for? Much safer to have him in the safety boat where you can not only ensure he is no longer a victim not getting in the way but can also monitor for things like hypothermia.

Going bow in and then trying to back out with that wind/tide would not be my approach at all.

It is a valid technique, one I have used literally hundreds if not thousands of times (and i do mean those numbers) and as I said it depends on the boat, and how it handles in the conditions/circumstances. If you note, i gave it as a 2nd option, as an illustration of another technique. If you don't wish you use it that's OK, dosent meant its not valid

I am in no way critisising the coxn in the clip, he was in control and it worked OK, just pointing out some observations, thoughts and techniques I have picked up over the years.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Poly

safety boat crew are not not (usually / when properly resourced) "referees". I'm not suggesting that safety boats shouldn't have the ability to end someone's race (at which point they may be more willing to cooperate) but I am wary of the idea that sailors should just do as they are told.


depends what 'acting' is - if just involves intervening then its fine, but all intervention carries some risk; if safety boat crew start acting like they are infallible and ordering dinghy sailors around it is potentially dangerous when the sailor has a reasonable/rational concern.

Didn't mean referees as such was using them to illustrate that not everyone agrees with other peoples decisions and perception can change a decision easily.

No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later.

[captnjack]

Originally Posted by Starovich

No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later.

Seriously? The safeties are not there to rescue those who don't want rescuing. If they want to be rescued later that's fine, but with your logic any capsized dinghy requires immediate intervention to prevent something which "could" happen 10, minutes later, 30 minutes later, or never.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by captnjack

Seriously? The safeties are not there to rescue those who don't want rescuing. If they want to be rescued later that's fine, but with your logic any capsized dinghy requires immediate intervention to prevent something which "could" happen 10, minutes later, 30 minutes later, or never.

I say again

No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later

Laser regional s bft 3, leave em be (count heads).

Oppy nationals Line squalls gusts of 40knts, grab the kids leave the boats!

Been there done that in both situations.

[Dan Gurney]

They need those things with a rope loop on a long pole like dog catchers use. Drag them into the boat whether they like it or not. Maybe a harpoon?

[captnjack]

Originally Posted by Clamchowder

They need those things with a rope loop on a long pole like dog catchers use. Drag them into the boat whether they like it or not. Maybe a harpoon?

Damn, sailor harpoons, why didn't I think of that!

[captnjack]

Originally Posted by Starovich

No one is infallible, but if the safety boat crew decide that intervention is needed with a rational thought process gained from training/experience, then they should act, and worry about the sailor being unhappy (but safe) later

OMG looks like that dinghy is going to capsize!!! The horrors. Must stop dinghy from capsizing!

You would not get safety boat duty for long around here with your overprotective attitude. And our water is no warmer than yours, with dinghy racing occuring year-round.

[Smithyyy]

There are safety boat crews who know exactly what they are doing, and there are crews who are, let's say, less experienced. I wouldn't give any crew blanket authority to tell the "casualty" what to do, I've certainly told some to keep well clear in my time, when I wasn't comfortable with the way they were approaching things.

Best safety boat crew I've met? From the Manly 16 Foot Skiff club in Sydney Harbour who sorted us out with a trashed mast with sail stuck in the broken track and spinnaker wrapped round the lot. Those guys knew exactly what they were up to!

Back to topic - I also vote FOR the safety crew in the vid. The guys in the water look comfortable, actively involved in trying to get their boat free, the distances probably are foreshortened, and getting the guy out by letting him hold onto the boat and get towed out probably beats trying to get the rib in close enough to the mess to extract him, even with a rope. The boat's nearly turtled already anyway and he's towing behind it, seems little risk of entrapment. And nice steering on the tow, must have been a hell of a drag on that towline pulling the dinghy against that wind and tide with the rig underwater. Pretty good job I think, certainly glad others have come in to counter the initial condemnation which I don't see we have the evidence to support