Milly accident report published

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

So reading a report of an actual incident where people died, including an 8yr old, would have little effect, whereas a load of bumf would Make your mind up Squire

I ment the fact the report exists will have little effect.
Who will read the report???
Only the already responsible pepole will look it up.
However if the report came though my door with my papers for my new boat. I would have more chance of reading it.

The education needs to be done in an inclusive way that gets to everyone.
I don't know how this would be best done, just suggesting possibles.

[HughN]

There are usually only two of us in the boat. Reading that report has made me think seriously about fitting another kill switch for the passenger.

[akirk]

Without wanting a huge debate on kill cords as I suspect that most on here are in agreement - isn't the technology a bit out of date now? We are relying on something being connected by the driver and the boat can run without it... even my lawnmower has a button to be depressed at all times - and it stops otherwise... from pressure pads on the driver's seat to a foot pedal held down, sensors on the steering wheel to detect no hand on it - etc. - plenty of options for actively detecting that someone is driving the boat which would remove this discussion / issue once and for all... boats are potentially dangerous and assumptions are made by owners... some safety just should be built in...

Alasdair

[Boats&Outboards]

Brings back how tragic this was. The report can be read in several ways but my opinions are as follows

I don't believe Mr Milligan was aware no kill cord was being used, the report suggests he left the helm to go to stern (I assume to untie from the pontoon) whilst his wife went to the helm to prevent kids from hitting the throttle, not fitting kill cord as she wasn't expecting to drive, just protect. They then proceeded to return to mooring, from personal experience I can imagine a scenario where she offered it back and perhaps he said "no you take us in darling", him still unaware no kill cord was connected and her forgetting to fit. Obviously they then changed their mind and wanted one last blast.

During this fateful manoeuvre perhaps he might not have been "reckless" as other posts suggest in doing this extreme turn, maybe he was trying to take avoiding action to prevent hitting the beach, as his wife had became concerned by. This wasn't a family being wreck-less, or at least not intentionally, they had all the gear, undertaken training, previous boating experience etc etc. They were not the typical "boy racer" we usually lambast on here.

The manufacturer used a way (completely legal) to increase the HP rating using different legislation. What could have been rated to 303hp in one way, was rated to 453 using another. Something which has been advised as requiring action to clarify in the report summary.

The hull design had been highlighted as a concern previously.

My final observation is regarding the lack of kill cord use. It appears to be more common with RIB users than other watercraft. The report highlighted several fatal incidents, all RIB related. Perhaps this is more of an issue with the kind of people who use RIBS (with higher consequences due to the type of boat) more than other boats. Just like we all moan at Jet Ski's for driving crazy, speed boats for no life jackets, yachties for everything etc.

Just my thoughts.

www.BoatsandOutboards4Sale.co.uk

[gooner-paul]

Interesting read on a very tragic set of curcumstances..

I amazed how many people I see in sports boats with children / adults not wearing bouyancy aids lifejackets or kill cords.. especially when the sun is out!!


I have a feeling those people wont be the likes of people doing rya courses, reading these kind of websites or even accident reports!

As someone else said somewhere.. some of the boat manufacturers can also learn from this by making sure those glamorous marketing pictures show people wearing kill cords wearing life jacketd etc.

Marinas and slipways should have big signs reminding users...

Granted if someone is going to go out without a kill cord on it doesnt matter how many reminders there are they will do it anyway..

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by gooner-paul

Interesting read on a very tragic set of curcumstances..

I amazed how many people I see in sports boats with children / adults not wearing bouyancy aids lifejackets or kill cords.. especially when the sun is out!!

I have a feeling those people wont be the likes of people doing rya courses, reading these kind of websites or even accident reports!

As someone else said somewhere.. some of the boat manufacturers can also learn from this by making sure those glamorous marketing pictures show people wearing kill cords wearing life jacketd etc.

Marinas and slipways should have big signs reminding users...

Granted if someone is going to go out without a kill cord on it doesnt matter how many reminders there are they will do it anyway..

I agree Paul. They won't be reading this or looking at all.
Slipway signs about kill cord is a good idea. They should say wear a life jacket too!
There is one on the slip at lymington!

But I bet many people don't even know how a kill cord works or what it's for. Especially if the cord is missing off there control box.

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by gooner-paul

As someone else said somewhere.. some of the boat manufacturers can also learn from this by making sure those glamorous marketing pictures show people wearing kill cords wearing life jacketd etc.

..

There is a drive for manufacturers to show safe skippering with images of lifejackets being worn and kill cords too as standard in all their promotional literature.

This needs to go further , it wont take anyone long to find images of VIPs on RIBs being taken out to Yachts or runs out for media piccies in the UK, so their logos get seen with these individuals, and none will wear lifejackets and some are linked to RYA as their top sailors!!

RYA are now as we seen releasing safety briefs, it needs to go to everything they do and have links with up to all levels

Long road ahead and I really hope we dont see another tragedy such as this

[Poly]

Originally Posted by MustRib

Interesting though all of the discussion of handbooks, boat handling, grab handles, alcohol consumption etc is - at the core of this incident is the use of the kill cord.

But actually the kill cord should have been the FINAL line of defence. I think sometimes people forget that - a boat design which doesn't flip you out, a helming style/approach which makes it less likely to fall over, well positioned occupants with secure handles etc. are the first line of defence. S**t does happen, and kill cords save lives (as you know well) but simply blaming the kill cord is ignoring several other opportunities to avoid or reduce the risk.

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by Poly

But actually the kill cord should have been the FINAL line of defence. I think sometimes people forget that - a boat design which doesn't flip you out, a helming style/approach which makes it less likely to fall over, well positioned occupants with secure handles etc. are the first line of defence. S**t does happen, and kill cords save lives (as you know well) but simply blaming the kill cord is ignoring several other opportunities to avoid or reduce the risk.

+1 agreed.

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by akirk

Without wanting a huge debate on kill cords as I suspect that most on here are in agreement - isn't the technology a bit out of date now? We are relying on something being connected by the driver and the boat can run without it... even my lawnmower has a button to be depressed at all times - and it stops otherwise... from pressure pads on the driver's seat to a foot pedal held down, sensors on the steering wheel to detect no hand on it - etc. - plenty of options for actively detecting that someone is driving the boat which would remove this discussion / issue once and for all... boats are potentially dangerous and assumptions are made by owners... some safety just should be built in...

Alasdair

Very difficult to keep pressure on the seats or a foot plate when jumping waves. I can see problems occurring possibly.
Can't see how you would remove the issue, as said.

The kill cord does it job fine when used correctly or at all.

[spartacus]

This was an 8m RIB with 300hp on tap. The killcord would undoubtedly have saved lives, no question. It's disorientating enough to be ejected into the sea, possibly battered and bruised from the initial accident, without having to consider the nightmare scenario of having to swim for your life because the boat you were in is now circling and heading straight for you.

I think something else we need to consider is the horse-power available on this boat. 300hp is a huge amount of power in anyone's book, especially when it's used either by accident or intentionally (but misinterpretating what will happen) the results can be catastrophic.

Anyone get the feeling there needs to be a certain amount of hours completed before someone take ownership of a performance RIB?

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by spartacus

This was an 8m RIB with 300hp on tap. The killcord would undoubtedly have saved lives, no question. It's disorientating enough to be ejected into the sea, possibly battered and bruised from the initial accident, without having to consider the nightmare scenario of having to swim for your life because the boat you were in is now circling and heading straight for you.

I think something else we need to consider is the horse-power available on this boat. 300hp is a huge amount of power in anyone's book, especially when it's used either by accident or intentionally (but misinterpretating what will happen) the results can be catastrophic.

Anyone get the feeling there needs to be a certain amount of hours completed before someone take ownerships of a performance RIB?

I see your point but it could happen with any size outboard.
Yes 300hp is big and owners need to be aware of how powerful and dangerous things are.

[akirk]

Part of the problem though is perception
- RIBs are known as safe boats so some owners don't respect them
- learning / boat trials take place in nice weather, so some don't respect the sea
- car engines are reliable and failure rarely affects you significantly, so some don't think through potential issues with marine engines, or see a need for a spare
- folks can swim, so don't consider a need for a life-jacket
- if you let go of the accelerator in a car the car will slow and stop - so some don't see a need for a kill cord
- folks don't understand forces in a boat / drive powerful vehicles before they have the skill / etc.

while we have a system allowing the freedom to just go off in a boat, it is balanced with accidents and deaths - the alternative, a licence as for cars, might save lives, but restrict freedoms - a difficult balance...

Alasdair

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Boats&Outboards

My final observation is regarding the lack of kill cord use. It appears to be more common with RIB users than other watercraft. The report highlighted several fatal incidents, all RIB related. Perhaps this is more of an issue with the kind of people who use RIBS (with higher consequences due to the type of boat) more than other boats. Just like we all moan at Jet Ski's for driving crazy, speed boats for no life jackets, yachties for everything etc.

Just my thoughts.

BoatsandOutboards4Sale | Hand-picked boats & motors, fully tested, delivered nationwide.

Do you think that's because the vast majority of ribs are open as with other boats if it hooks or the helmsman gets knocked over the cabin or cuddy helps to stop the helmsman going overboard. So you would never know if one was worn or not.

[Ribandmotorhome]

Originally Posted by kerny

Do you think that's because the vast majority of ribs are open as with other boats if it hooks or the helmsman gets knocked over the cabin or cuddy helps to stop the helmsman going overboard. So you would never know if one was worn or not.

Yes! Fiberglass boats are usually deeper inside. Maybe sat with the deck level with your shoulder or elbow.

Not your knees as in a rib!

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by spartacus

This was an 8m RIB with 300hp on tap. The killcord would undoubtedly have saved lives, no question. It's disorientating enough to be ejected into the sea, possibly battered and bruised from the initial accident, without having to consider the nightmare scenario of having to swim for your life because the boat you were in is now circling and heading straight for you.

I think something else we need to consider is the horse-power available on this boat. 300hp is a huge amount of power in anyone's book, especially when it's used either by accident or intentionally (but misinterpretating what will happen) the results can be catastrophic.

Anyone get the feeling there needs to be a certain amount of hours completed before someone take ownership of a performance RIB?

And that opens up a whole new can o'worms, that is the slippery slope to registration/licensing/testing/taxation & a nice little earner for someone

[MustRib]

Originally Posted by Poly

But actually the kill cord should have been the FINAL line of defence. I think sometimes people forget that - a boat design which doesn't flip you out, a helming style/approach which makes it less likely to fall over, well positioned occupants with secure handles etc. are the first line of defence. S**t does happen, and kill cords save lives (as you know well) but simply blaming the kill cord is ignoring several other opportunities to avoid or reduce the risk.

Absolutely - reduce the risk, but your talking about such broad strokes - boat design, helming style, more extensive training. We are enthusiastic about what we do but many of those tootling around on a Summers afternoon are far less detail orientated. They want to get out on the water, with only the basics under consideration, so directing resources at the basics of safe and responsible boating and encouraging the wearing of kill cords seems a much more realistic goal and in this case would have no doubt produced a different and less tragic outcome.
As you say S**t happens. The best handling boat, the most well trained crew, the most well positioned occupants will not mean a thing if your watching your boat prescribe ever decreasing circles around you in the water. Get something fundamental right - kill cords, lifejackets - and aim to get to the point where the psyche of the boating public is that to not use both seems unthinkable.

[kerny]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

And that opens up a whole new can o'worms, that is the slippery slope to registration/licensing/testing/taxation & a nice little earner for someone

mmm... would make a great job for a Council waller P.D.

[Mollers]

The 8m/300hp are actually just numbers. 4m/40hp could just as easily result in a tragic result if poorly handled.

[willk]

Originally Posted by spartacus

Anyone get the feeling there needs to be a certain amount of hours completed before someone take ownership of a performance RIB?

Um, no?

http://www.rib.net/forum/f16/redbay-...tml#post534646