Misled by the RYA re ICC?

[tim griffin]

Thats why Sunsail , Neilson and many other charter companies around the world , operate in Countries that accept the ICC as proof of competence. If they did not, then it would not make sense from a business point of view would it.

If you want to charter abroad from a non UK based company then check with the company what is accepted as proof of competence before parting with any cash so as to avoid dissapointment

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by peteb

can you imagine going on an annual holiday to charter and being turned away when you arrive because of this!

Can you imagine going on an annual holiday to charter without checking that you have the necessary qualifications and documents first?

John

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

R U flanker?

Can't you tel Stu?
Don't tell me me you are going to make up a Limerick !

[David Hickman]

I must agree that it is not printed on the ICC application form clearly stating what the ICC can be used for and where.
Unless I have not had any new ICC app forms for 2005? Maybe you can tell be Tim as I have only got the May 2004 form.

[Powerboat]

Hi Pete and others ,

Sorry for taking a while to join in this but I've just got back to the office after the Dublin Boat Show.

Just wondering Pete..........Your concerns seem to be about the RYA , but the URL you quote ( below) is from the Irish Sailing Association ISA website www.sailing.ie .

What this site points out is that an RYA Cert cannot be used as the basis for an Irish Government issued ICC...You must use an ISA Cert. The contrary applies in the UK. Even though the ISA and RYA cross recognise each others Certs and Instructors within their respective Powerboat Schemes, they are not allowed to issue ICCs unless the applicant has a qualification ( National Powerboat Cert or Level 2) from the ICC issuing country.

While an ICC will be recognised by partner nations, it does not of course guarantee qualification or recognition status from an individual charterer. This is a matter between the ICC holder and the charter company.

Best wishes,

Stuart
[QUOTE=peteb] sailing.ie, giving wrong advice?

http://www.sailing.ie/dynamic/pdf/IC...Qs(july04).pdf

I hope that the RYA are going to write to all the people that they have issued the ICC to in the last 5 years to warn them that unless they are using it on a British registered vessel, then it is a useless piece of paper, and that all holders are required to undergo training in the country they wish to charter or use a non UK registered boat in.

[tim griffin]

Originally Posted by tim griffin

Quote from the application for a ICC


1 ELIGIBILITY
This certificate is only available to British citizens and bona fide British residents over the age of 16.Evidence of residency for non-citizens will be required in the form of a photocopy of a driving licence , utility bill, Council Tax bill or bank statement ect. Further authenticated evidence residency for non-citizens may be required.
The ICC is acceptable for British citizens or residents using a British flagged vessel for leisure .Other countries may accept the ICC for their native flagged vessels

2 EVIDENCE OF COMPETENCY Evidence may be provided in one of the following ways
a. By producing an RYA certificate of satisfactory completion of a relevant PRACTICAL course , an RYA/MCA Certificate of Competence or a Statutory Certificate of Competence issued by the MCA , or a services Bridge Watch Keeping Certificate . See list on page 4 . Section 11a below must be completed
b: By passing a test of competence at an RYA recognised training centre or an RYA affiliated club authorised to carry out tests .For power endorsed ICC'S, this test must be carried out on a vessel appropriate to the type of ICC required , ie above or below 10 metres.

Hi Dave its taken from the 2005 ICC forms
So long as people wishing to charter abroad check with the company that an ICC is acceptable proof of competency then their should not be a problem, Its down to the charter company to comply with the laws of the country they operate in . In regard to this it would make sense to operate in countries that accept ICC certificates issued in this country and other countries where they have a client base .

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Brian

Can't you tel Stu?
Don't tell me me you are going to make up a Limerick !

That particularly penny dropped very slowly!

No I wan't going to make up a limerick but I am, sure that gArfie could!

[Paul Glatzel]

New ICC form here http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploade...ation_Form.pdf

Paul

[peteb]

Stuart & Paul, thanks. The new form sets out exactly what it should say, what I am annoyed about is the fact that I was informed that I 'must' have an ICC to charter abroad, and this would be accepted in all other countries, this is of course nonsense as it is not valid legally for anything other than a British registered vessel. I see from comments that certain charter companies accept it as proof, but they would probably also accept a dayskipper or YM certificate as well, so not only do you not 'need' to have it, you are relying on the goodwill of other countries to accept it. I was falsley misled into believing that this was my 'international certificate' to use or to charter a boat anywhere, and would not have questioned with a charter company whether I had the correct certification, I would have just turned up as I was told by the RYA this was my certification.

I will be using a friends power boat in the Cayman Islands in 4 weeks time, I don't know whether or not I will need any further qualifications there, I will need to check that out unless anyone here can help.

Thanks again for the help on this matter.

P.S. Stuart, re the Irish link, it states that the ICC must be obtained in order to charter a vessel abroad, it does not make it clear that it must be British registered vessel, or the fact that the ICC is not legally valid, or just 'may' be accepted, and does not say that 'any' other proof of experience may also be accepted instead. I guess they will alter it now after this new info has come out.

[Powerboat]

Peter,

I must correct you.

The Irish Sailing Association website you quote does not state "that the ICC must be obtained in order to charter a vessel abroad" and I would ask you with respect to withdraw that very unfair accusation.

Why should an Irish Sailing Association site have to mention anything at all about "British Registered Vessels"????????.

I would ask RIB Net members to read the link you quote.

You Quote:

P.S. Stuart, re the Irish link, it states that the ICC must be obtained in order to charter a vessel abroad, it does not make it clear that it must be British registered vessel, or the fact that the ICC is not legally valid, or just 'may' be accepted, and does not say that 'any' other proof of experience may also be accepted instead. I guess they will alter it now after this new info has come out. [/QUOTE]

[peteb]

Yes Stuart, I apologise for that, you are correct, I should have said Irish, as Irish people according to the interpretation of the law will be in the same boat as us, e.g. only covered whilst operating a vessel registered from their home country, Ireland in this instance. My intention was to show that other countries are in fact as confused as anyone.

I also need to clarify the wording of 'charter abroad' I mentioned, the site states that holders wishing to charter boats with an intenationaly recognised document certifying their competence to skipper a boat for recreational use. I could only draw one conclusion that this had to be abroad, as you would not need an 'international certificate' at home, I have corrected this however. According to what we are now being told by the RYA, this document is ONLY 'internationaly recognised' for 'vessels registered in the skippers home country', this is not made clear at all and is misleading IMHO. The ICC IS NOT internationaly recognised 'by law' for other vessels registered abroad.

It is clearly stated in the link I posted, as I see the ICC section now needs clarification, and full explanation IMHO if what the RYA says is correct, I am not just picking on that site, but if the RYA have found this loophole, then others like Ireland and in fact all those signed up to resolution 40 need to review their interpretation and act accordingly.

The ICC would be the perfect answer if it did not have this strange loophole, which I guess was not meant to happen. It would be great to be able to trust this Certificate as an 'international licence', not 'pot luck' whether someone will accept it or not.

Cheers,

[Powerboat]

Thanks for that Pete.......... Apology accepted !

We are very careful over here in Ireland as to how we sell the ICC.

An ICC is nothing more than Internationally accepted proof in accordance with UN resolution 40 that the holder possesses a certain internationally agreed and benchmarked basic standard of competency / skill in boat handling.

It is not a licence.

It does not necessarily confer any rights to operate any craft in either a home or foreign environment.

Therefore whether or not a particular country allows you to charter a vessel of your own or another flag is actually nothing at all to do with an ICC but rather to do with the National law of the country you are visiting.

An ICC is merely a form of globally recognised and accepted proof that you have achieved a certain standard of competency.

Laws of the particular country you are visiting as well as the vagaries of individual charter companys then come into play when you wsh to operate a vessel within their juristiction.

Here in Ireland the ICC has only recently been adopted by the Irish Govt and is administered for the Irish Govt by the ISA. All ISA ICC approved test centre principals underwent extensive briefing on how to sell and more importantly how not to sell the ICC.

If people read the first para of the Irish Sailing Association site you quoted, they will see that the first paragraph which answers the question " What is an ICC?" reflects just what I have explained above. Which is why I was concerned about the comments of your last mail relating to our site.

Kind regards,

Stuart

[Rubber jobby]

Pfft! ICC. Peter any old fool can get an ICC. Its a waste of time and paper. It means bugger all. You'd be better off concerntrating on getting experience under your belt and going in for you YM.
Interestingly the YM is recognised as THE qulification worldwide for "private" skippers. Yet the YM is also administered by the RYA. At least with YM you have to show a modicum of understanding to get the cert.

[Cork Rib]

Went on to the ISA website to check out getting an ICC for my summer hols and notice that it is the usual rip off price of 86 Euros for a piece of paper. I also notice that if you are an ISA member you get it cheaper at the BARGAIN (sic) price of 50 Euros. As I understood it, the ISA are only administering the ICC for the Gov't, so why the two prices?

In the past I have chartered boats in Spain and Italy using my PB Certs with no problem. Me thinks just another money making racket!!

Jon

[peteb]

Well as I have stated 'I was sold' the ICC as the only certification that would let you charter abroad, that is clearly nonsense. I cannot for the sake of me understand why you need that 'for a rip off fee', when you have already obtained perfectly valid certifications e.g. Dayskipper practical.

I still believe that ANYONE marketing the ICC should state clearly what it does and does not do for you. With respect Stuart, the para regarding the ICC on the ie website does not make it at all clear IMHO. I am sure that you are explaining it clearly to those that come to you for training, but it should be in clear English what it can and cannot do, it should also state that in fact you 'do not need it' if not using a vessel from your own country, 'any' certification is good, as long as the charter company accept it, not deceiving some people as I was into believing it was a legal requirement for charter abroad.

As stated in a reply above it means bugger all, and if not skippering a home registered vessel it is not law, and therefore cannot be a legal requirement, where does anyone explain that? I guess the vaguer it is, the more mugs get one and line the pockets of the issuing authorities with the ridiculous fee, and boost their membership

Let the issuing authorites clearly state that the ICC is 'not a licence' just a certificate of competence, then some bright spark (hopefuly all potential applicants) will say, well I have already paid for a fistful of other certificates e.g. PB1/PB2/Advanced/YM shore based/Dayskipper practical, what the hell do I want another piece of paper for?

Great if that ICC WAS accepted everywhere, but it is not, it is discretion as to whether or not it is accepted, utter twadle IMHO, and you would have as much trust in it as a chocolate prop.

The game is up for this scam now

I guess under the freedom of information act we can request the RYA to produce the figures for the amount of people who joined the RYA as a result of applying for an ICC in the last 5 years

[Powerboat]

The ISA website is as I have already said is true and factual.

It it is meant as a short simple guide as to what is an ICC.

If we were to deal with every possible individual scenario, than we could be writing all day ( feels like it already! )

Here in Ireland each individual customers needs are assessed on a one to one basis by the ICC test centre and here, individual advice is given to a prospective candidate...( Why do you want an ICC? etc...).

Jon, I agree with you about the high cost of processing the applications. As an unpaid officer of the association , who was involved in gaining the ICC for Ireland over the last few years I can make the following observations.....

The ICC for Ireland was fought for by the ISA in response to a demand from both its members and customers of its RTEs. who wanted to be able to prove their competence especially in France and Spain where an ISA Powerboat Cert was not as recognisable as a more numerous and therefore better recognised (internationally) RYA one.

I know that while demand is reasonably high from our customers for the ICC, that same customer base in Ireland is relatively small. The cost of the quite expensive machinery to produce the laminated certs to an approved standard and the relative staff costs to ISA head office with only a half dozen full time employees are therfore relatively high for a small office and small market. I understand ( bear in mind I am not an employee of the ISA) that the €50 reflects the projected capital costs of the machinery set up over a period and the €36 reflects the actual costs of staff and admin and profit. The ISA charges are waived for members. I'll check out the cost breakdown during the week.

[Rubber jobby]

Please if you get over to Coosan point area have a look at LRYC pontoons as I left a brand new pair of Dubarry Commanders there!
As for Ireland and the ICC. I was never asked for ANY paperwork whatsoever when I visited. Not even insurance!
What makes me really chuckle is that visitors from france and the like never get asked for any certification from what I've seen......makes you think?

[Cork Rib]

Originally Posted by Powerboat

Jon, I agree with you about the high cost of processing the applications. As an unpaid officer of the association , who was involved in gaining the ICC for Ireland over the last few years I can make the following observations.....


I know that while demand is reasonably high from our customers for the ICC, that same customer base in Ireland is relatively small. The cost of the quite expensive machinery to produce the laminated certs to an approved standard and the relative staff costs to ISA head office with only a half dozen full time employees are therfore relatively high for a small office and small market. I understand ( bear in mind I am not an employee of the ISA) that the €50 reflects the projected capital costs of the machinery set up over a period and the €36 reflects the actual costs of staff and admin and profit. The ISA charges are waived for members. I'll check out the cost breakdown during the week.

Thanks for the reply Stuart, but what really bugs me is the fact that the ISA offer two prices for the same cert ON BEHALF of the Gov't and not the ISA. Therefore, the fact that you are a member or not should not make any difference at all to the price. If the Gov't were issueing the ICC they would not offer a price for the 42% tax payer and another for the 22% tax payer.......or would they?

[peteb]

Stuart, I agree that the Irish are in fact doing a sterling job considering, and we don't even get laminated cards here, just a piece of paper and a plastic wallet

See if you can use your powers to get the ICC given the status internationaly that it deserves, then we will all be happy as I have still got 4yrs 11 mths left on mine

[Paul Glatzel]

Let the issuing authorites clearly state that the ICC is 'not a licence' just a certificate of competence, then ~ peteb

....would that be why it is called an International Certificate of Competence then??????

Pete - If i might humbly suggest that the 'debate' has started to go round in ever decreasing circles. I suggest that if you have a real identifiable issue that the situation has been misrepresented to you - and you have proof as opposed to interpretation of what was said - then you direct your questions & observations to either James Stevens (Head of Training) or Jon Mendez at the RYA. They are always keen to ensure that all schools are 200% clear about the ICC and they have mechanisms for communicating with them so will be able to react appropriately (if relevant) to your points.

There will always be situations where an explanation/definition can be open to differing interpretations and i would have thought the best way forward is to make constructive observations to the powers that be to effect change if change is in fact needed

Paul