More good work but a sad sight at the same time

[PeterM]

BBC News - County Cork tall ship rescue 'a miracle'

Not a good scene , but at least all got off ok & as always cradit to the RNLI crews involved.

[lakelandterrier]

Shame,Astrid, is/was good ship.
Will she be refloated?
Any view on what hasppened?

[SiR_Pete]

There is talk it was engine failure?? Navy divers are assessing it today to see if it can be salvaged..!!

[Boatnomad]

Yes,engine failure. Wonder was there enough time to drop the anchor?

[ShinyShoe]

Have to confess I've followed a good many RNLI shouts and had started to form the opinion that they had almost been replaced by helicopters for doing the real life saving stuff and were mostly just doing a lot of towing broken boats home and helping to fruitlessly search for wreckage or survivors.

Been a couple of times just recently that the RNLI boys have very definately been the ones who did the rescuing. It seems to be when there are larger numbers of people too - I guess it would take a good while to winch 30 people off that. 2 at a time you'd be looking at probably half an hour minimum and thats assuming the helo could carry that many without having to land them.

[willk]

This was a classic case of an inter-agency rescue. An "exercise" had been conducted a few weeks earlier that (luckily) had quite a lot of commonality with the actual incident. In this case, there were two Sikorskys on scene and they would have had space for 30 POB between them.

The RNLI and Coastguard Helo service are not competitive but rather complimentary. Here the CG will often deploy both, but generally one service has an obvious advantage on scene. It's not always clear in advance which it will be.

When it's a straight race to a sinking vessel offshore, then the helo will often "win", but it can be slow to deploy and incidents are often far from the base. An RNLI RIB/new Offshore in a forward position can be on the water and doing 30/25kts in under 10 minutes. Helos are crap under cliffs and can't handle large numbers of PAX quickly. In addition, the helo crews are often flying into relatively unknown (to them) territory, wheras the RNLI crews know every point and bay on their patch. Comms from the CG are skewed to a "land" perspective and without co-ordinates, an aircrew can find their "instructions" difficult to interpret into useful data.

BTW, I had a guessing game with a WAFI today:

willk "how many casualties can a Tyne class hold?"
WAFI "25?"
willk "108! "

[SiR_Pete]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Have to confess I've followed a good many RNLI shouts and had started to form the opinion that they had almost been replaced by helicopters for doing the real life saving stuff and were mostly just doing a lot of towing broken boats home and helping to fruitlessly search for wreckage or survivors.

Been a couple of times just recently that the RNLI boys have very definately been the ones who did the rescuing. It seems to be when there are larger numbers of people too - I guess it would take a good while to winch 30 people off that. 2 at a time you'd be looking at probably half an hour minimum and thats assuming the helo could carry that many without having to land them.

There is a lot of reasons for that, one main one is that the helicopter staff afaik are the only personal in the ICG all the rest are voluntary except the coxswain of the all weather RNLI boats. because they are constantly in the hanger waiting for a call and not off doing there daily business waiting on a page they can be in the air quicker than a volunteer group can be in the water. aswell as that it could take an hour for the all weather boats to reach the destenation of a shout due to the size of the area they cover but the Sikorsky has a cruise speed of about 220kph and a top speed of approx. 270kph they can make it to a call quicker.

[willk]

Originally Posted by SiR_Pete

because they are constantly in the hanger waiting for a call and not off doing there daily business waiting on a page they can be in the air quicker than a volunteer group can be in the water.

Not a chance...

[m chappelow]

advantage with a lifeboat over Helicopter is a lifeboat can tow a ditched helicopter rather than vice/versa as happened off Aberdeen a while ago ; )

[ShinyShoe]

Originally Posted by SiR_Pete

There is a lot of reasons for that, one main one is that the helicopter staff afaik are the only personal in the ICG all the rest are voluntary except the coxswain of the all weather RNLI boats. because they are constantly in the hanger waiting for a call and not off doing there daily business waiting on a page they can be in the air quicker than a volunteer group can be in the water. aswell as that it could take an hour for the all weather boats to reach the destenation of a shout due to the size of the area they cover but the Sikorsky has a cruise speed of about 220kph and a top speed of approx. 270kph they can make it to a call quicker.

Suspect it has more to do with who can get the casualty to where they need to be quickest. So someone having a heart attack the helo could arrive 10minutes after the LB but would still get the casualty to hospital quicker, leaving the LB to do the less glamarous job of getting the boat home safely.

My point wasn't meant to be that the two were competing but perhaps that if you didn't spot stories like this one, and were making a decision where you invested your resources you'd probably think the helo was more likely to save a life and a LB more likely to save the boat. But if there had been no LB there they'd have been at far greater risk of going for a swim while the helo winched them off.

Which then makes you wonder why the helo is government funded and the LB is not!

[Ribochet]

Fact - RNLI Lifeboats aim to reach at least 90% of all casualties within 10 nautical miles of the coast within 30 minutes of launch in all weathers and in most cases a launch happens in a matter of minutes after the pagers go off.

In this heart breaking loss of a magnificient sail training vessel - 4 RNLI Lifeboat were launched - more and a video:

RNLI lifeboats launch to sinking tall ship with 30 people on board off Kinsale

PS

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

Which then makes you wonder why the helo is government funded and the LB is not!

The simple answer to that is that RNLI are in complete control of their destiny -not a pen pushing, bean counting, idiot in Whitehall

[willk]

Originally Posted by Ribochet

The simple answer to that is that RNLI are in complete control of their destiny -not a pen pushing, bean counting, idiot in Whitehall

lol

There's a story does the rounds here, maybe urban myth: Once upon a recent time, the Irish DOT decided to sharpen up the rules for coded craft. And thought that it would be funny to include all rescue craft. So the Rules got Writ and lo, RNLI craft were going to need a "major rethink" as they "didn't comply"

Much debate ensued. The RNLI wanted an exemption, the DOT rather thought not.

Finally, it came to a meeting in Dublin between the RNLI top dog and the Minister. Minister says, well, my Department have these Rules and ultimately, you'll have to comply, even if it means rebuilding your boats.

RNLI dude says, see all those €3,000,000 offshore boats, all those €250,000 inshore boats? One text from me and they're moored in Poole the day after tomorrow. Your turn...

RNLI got an exemption

[Ribochet]

Originally Posted by willk

lol

There's a story does the rounds here, maybe urban myth: Once upon a recent time, the Irish DOT decided to sharpen up the rules for coded craft. And thought that it would be funny to include all rescue craft. So the Rules got Writ and lo, RNLI craft were going to need a "major rethink" as they "didn't comply"

Much debate ensued. The RNLI wanted an exemption, the DOT rather thought not.

Finally, it came to a meeting in Dublin between the RNLI top dog and the Minister. Minister says, well, my Department have these Rules and ultimately, you'll have to comply, even if it means rebuilding your boats.

RNLI dude says, see all those €3,000,000 offshore boats, all those €250,000 inshore boats? One text from me and they're moored in Poole the day after tomorrow. Your turn...

RNLI got an exemption

Oooooophs how very remiss of me - especially as I have a foot in each country - my reply should have read

The simple answer to that is that RNLI are in complete control of their destiny -not a pen pushing, bean counting, idiot in Whitehall or Leinster House



PS good luck if you can find a button to press on the 950 - what a plotter OMG

[Poly]

Originally Posted by ShinyShoe

My point wasn't meant to be that the two were competing but perhaps that if you didn't spot stories like this one, and were making a decision where you invested your resources you'd probably think the helo was more likely to save a life and a LB more likely to save the boat. But if there had been no LB there they'd have been at far greater risk of going for a swim while the helo winched them off.

Some of the people boarded life rafts and there was a RIB and various other sail training boats "on scene" before it even actually hit the rocks. In reality although it is billed as a "miracle" that everyone survived, actually my understanding is sail training boats are actually very disciplined at emergency drills, everyone would have had life jackets to hand etc too. And the circumstances were she was just coming out of harbour so help was relatively close to hand rather than mid ocean. Fortunate perhaps but miraculous no.

[ribrunt]

Poly - agreed hardly not miraculous - however early pics/footage shows her beam on with a large send up & down the side - it would have been easy for someone to be injured in transfers. Luckily, she then swung to a more bows-on position, lessening the relative movement of sea vs. boat.

The other vessels on scene were unable to give assistance, and those in the liferaft were put there by the Kinsale lifeboat crew, one of whom boarded to assist the evacuation.

[ribrunt]

@Wilk - the story is not quite correct, but not far from the truth, and the punchline is spot on! .... heard it first hand from a recently retired gentleman

[Ribliam]

Evening Echo — Astrid Plundered

Looks like the trophy collectors were out over the weekend

[Boatnomad]

Astrid lifted in major salvage operation.

[Boatnomad]

http://www.mcib.ie/reports/?thisid=2082

[willk]

The full report is out. It is worth a read - particularly by commercial operators. There were a great many issues: Underqualified master and crew, poor safety briefing, unserviced rafts, water in the fuel, no attempt to anchor, no proper VHF operation, etc, etc.

Marine Casualty Investigation Board