Navigation lights !!

[steco1958]

I do not have an "A" Frame, is it acceptable to place the lights on the console ??

And the
Green is Starboard
Red is Port

Steve

[Rokraider]

I have mine on the console, but if your bow has much of a rocker, it could obscure them?
I have the white light on a mast behind the rear seats.

[wellhouse]

Yes it's fine but put them as high up as possible, if you need some give me a pm as I've got some new hella marine ones you can have for postage. Cheers

[steco1958]

Originally Posted by wellhouse

Yes it's fine but put them as high up as possible, if you need some give me a pm as I've got some new hella marine ones you can have for postage. Cheers

PM sent !!

[Firefly]

Good advice from Rokraider. A mast for the all round white is a must if you want to be seen.

[BruceB]

Depending on when you actually use them the reflections off the tubes can kill some of your night vision.
I moved mine back mainly because of this.

[Dry_Doc]

Originally Posted by BruceB

Depending on when you actually use them the reflections off the tubes can kill some of your night vision.
I moved mine back mainly because of this.

On a related note, don't be tempted to fit an all round white that's more powerful than you need. That will also reduce your night vision quite dramatically.

[BruceB]

Realistically it is difficult to get an ARW that is dim enough not to affect night vision if you are operating in the real black of night. I ended up painting part of the inside of the ARW lens black to reduce its glare.

[SeaSkills]

I understand the problem, but reducing the (required) light intensity makes a fast moving boat harder to see - and that somewhat defeats the object of having nav lights. They are not for the benefit of the people on the boat they're fixed to, they are for the benefit of others. I think if you are planning on going out in the dark with lights that you have deliberately dimmed, you should first clear it with your insurers (and I don't think they will support you), and the MCA (ditto)

[Rokraider]

I have put a plate on the top of my mast that is cross shaped, with one leg pointing forward. I have got a fore and aft LED work lamp for emergencies and the GPS and VHF aerials either side. The white light is in the middle and the cross base plate throws a shadow over the bows, which means it doesn't interfere too much with my night vision.

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

I understand the problem, but reducing the (required) light intensity makes a fast moving boat harder to see - and that somewhat defeats the object of having nav lights. They are not for the benefit of the people on the boat they're fixed to, they are for the benefit of others. I think if you are planning on going out in the dark with lights that you have deliberately dimmed, you should first clear it with your insurers (and I don't think they will support you), and the MCA (ditto)

Seriously, how many RIBs even have proper Nav lights never mind have them in the right positions and places?
I don't think anyone could say my lights aren't bright enough

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by BruceB

Seriously, how many RIBs even have proper Nav lights never mind have them in the right positions and places?
I don't think anyone could say my lights aren't bright enough

Bruce, as long as your lights maintain their visibility of 2 miles for whites, 1 mile for sidelights, you're OK - but let's not suggest to a new boater who's asking the question on this forum because he wants to do it right that it's acceptable not to have lights

[BruceB]

The guy asked it it was OK to put Nav lights on a console. Both myself and somebody else simply pointed out some issues to think about related to glare and night vision.
I have operated in the dark a lot, probably more than most in relation to the size of my boat, and night vision is a big issue.
When you are a driving a RIB, at night, in the pitch black then the biggest risk you have is not being hit by another boat but hitting floating debris, unseen wakes and large waves at speed.
Within a harbour lights are more important but then you generally have lighting around showing some detail, try this on the west coast, at night and away from habitation on a moonless and/or cloudy night is a completely different matter.
I moved my Nav lights off the console because the tubes were reflecting too much light and spoiling night vision. I also painted the inside of the ARW where it directly shone on the console forward as this was reflecting back off the console and spoiling night vision.
These issues were only really noticed in really pitch black conditions, the sort you literally cannot see a thing without a light source.
I have to admit most folk use Nav lights in poor viz or coming back at dusk, not in the middle of the night setting off several hours after dark!

[steco1958]

Thanks for all the replies, there are some very interesting views that obviously need to be considered, especially the reasoning around the Nav Lights interfering with your own night vision.

I suppose the thing to do is to place the lights where they can be seen correctly but also ensure they do not introduce even greater danger by not allowing you to see out from the boat yourself.

Steve

[tonto]

Rules of the road, Rule 23, deals with lights of power driven vessels underway.

As I would suggest all RIBs an such like are capably of doing more than 7 knots, sidelights are also required

The requirement is then to carry either a masthead, and sternlight, or an all round white light.
In line with annex 1 (2)(d), this white light or masthead light needs to be at least 1M higher than the sidelights.

I absolutely agree with the comment regarding not dimming of the lights.

I work on large vessels, and small vessels at night scare the bejesus out of us! We cannot normally pick small vessels up on radar, even with a radar reflector, and particularly travelling at speed, as our radars think the small fast target is either clutter, or a helicopter, and suppresses it, and if we cannot see you, we have to hope you can see us!

However bear this in mind, we carry no lights on our deck, forward of the bridge so as not to interfer with our vision, and on a very dark night you may see just a light on our forward mast, and then 300meters further aft the other lights, not realising there is a lot of unlit big ship inbetween. Small craft have tried to drive between them, and collided with large vessels on a number of occasions.

We need to be able to see you so at least we can sound our horn to alert you if we see you late, as there is no way we could hope to avoid a small fast craft such as a RIB.

If you were to ask my advice, I would suggest putting as strong a light as possible, and carefull positioning o fit Horizontally, to stop the white light shining back off the tubes or anything else.

End of sermon!

Tonto

[tonto]

Originally Posted by steco1958

Thanks for all the replies, there are some very interesting views that obviously need to be considered, especially the reasoning around the Nav Lights interfering with your own night vision.

I suppose the thing to do is to place the lights where they can be seen correctly but also ensure they do not introduce even greater danger by not allowing you to see out from the boat yourself.

Steve

The rules also deal with safe speed, (rule 6 (a)(iv)) and basically if your vision is affected by "backscatter" of your own lights, you need to slow down!

Tonto

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by tonto

The rules also deal with safe speed, (rule 6 (a)(iv)) and basically if your vision is affected by "backscatter" of your own lights, you need to slow down!

Tonto

I heard this only really a problem when your boat reaches close to the speed of light

[BruceB]

Originally Posted by Starovich

I heard this only really a problem when your boat reaches close to the speed of light

Unfortunately my RIB doesn't have enough power to go fast enough to see redshift...............

I actually find this argument quite funny. Considering that the majority of RIBs either don't have Nav lights or if they do, a full compliant set of lights I find it quite funny that several folk seem to be taking it badly that I do have a good set of properly spaced lights but somehow am being really bad because I have painted out a small sector of one side of one light so I can actually see where I am going.........!
The argument seems to be that it is more important for everyone to see you and not important for you to see them.. which is a bit of an exaggeration but not far from the truth.
In reality a large ship would be transmitting AIS which my RIB receives direct onto the plotter and is also fitted with a huge f**k off sized Reflector high up in addition to the full set of lights, albeit with one of them blacked out where it faces down and forward.......
If you can't see me then you must be blind but at least with AIS and good night vision I have a chance to see you.

[9D280]

With regard tpo proper positioning, my rib came with an '80s version of nav. lights, when the >7 knot rule hadn't been written. A single ARW was enough, but it wasnlt really an ARW, because anyone in the driving seat blocked a good 15 degree arc forward!

I have since firtted a lighting pole, so my ARW now clears both my head and the rules. Not tried it in complete darkness yet, but one thing I am also looking at is instrument light dimming.... biut that's another thread for the future!

[willk]

While everyone has a valid point here - I have to speak in support of BruceB. Firstly, I can personally confirm that his RIB isn't that fast . Secondly, the waters he drives in are very very dark when the stars fail to delight. I've been out on those nights when it's so dark, you aren't sure where the horizontal plane still is. I've had to tape up a small sector on my ARW so that it didn't ruin all hope of decent night vision - after all, the Mark I Eyeball is still our best friend. I don't think it would have compromised an approaching vessels ability to spot me in the least.