New consultation for disposal of expired pyrotechnics

[John Kennett]

From the MCA:

The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) has provided a free disposal service to all pleasure vessel owners for a number of years through 17 of their current Coastguard stations around the UK, plus one at the Royal National Lifeboat Institution (RNLI) at Poole, Dorset.

These arrangements are subject to review and an opportunity now presents itself to consider whether alternative arrangements ought to be explored to dispose of expired, damaged or redundant pyrotechnics from service in a more effective and efficient way, while also ensuring that pleasure vessel owners can meet their own legal obligations more easily and conveniently.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...-marine-flares

[spartacus]

Interestingly when MCA first launched service to accept flares at 17 of their sites (and it's not a walk-in service) they were receiving around 60,000 per annum. In 2018 they received only 12,000. Now that can't be people just switching to PLBs and strobes, so there must be lots of pyrotechnics sitting in people's homes, myself included.

I thought about RNLI stations as a way of widening the scope of service, but the logistics are they need to be able to accept them, and store them in a safe manner. Currently costs the MCA £250k a year.

In the scale of the money that's being spent this is small-change and I know MCA is under constant budget attack, but something does need to be done.

Another interesting point is the Dft's preferred option is for industry self-regulation. Typical approach and won't achieve anything. I've tried taking expired flares back to a business that I bought them from and they wouldn't accept them.

[GuyC]

It draws some parallels with tyres and suggests that tyre disposal costs £1.50 to £2 per tyre. I know tyre prices vary a lot but that is circa 2% of the price of a tyre. At the moment if only 12,000 flares are being handed in per year and it costs £250k, that is £20 per flare or roughly 100% of the price of the flare.

Flares would potentially just double in price.

I note that Marine Superstore sells flares but you receive them direct from the supplier. If you are expected to return them to the supplier for disposal, then I can see your doubly expensive flares still being hoarded in the garage once they expire.

Shops aren't going to be able to put in the facilities to accept and store them.

Other than people using the service to demonstrate its benefit - figures from the report suggests there are 120,000 flares expiring per year, I'm not sure what the answer is.

[lakelandterrier]

The old fashioned way was to dump at sea.

Given the tonnage of munitions not only dumped for disposal but 2 world wars wars worth of expended ammunition - or that carried on sunk shipping, and the contribution of maritime firing ranges, how much real damage is done by old flares disposed of in deep water - not 100 yards offshore. How is / has this been measured?

Given everything else from oil spills to overfishing, how much of this is a real environmental problem? What about encasing them in a tin of concrete to seal them before consigning to the deep?

Don't get me wrong, I hate litter and marine pollution, but just how much damage in the scale of things does dumping old flare in deep water cause? Genuine question

[lakelandterrier]

Originally Posted by spartacus

Now that can't be people just switching to PLBs and strobes, so there must be lots of pyrotechnics sitting in people's homes, myself included.

Agreed, but I have switched to LED strobe + 2 floating smoke, so that's now 2 items to dispose of every 5 years not the 7 or so in a pyrotechnic flare pack. Big reduction.

I do some work for a fireworks company, always a good route for time expire red handhelds fired electrically

[Brian]

Fire Stations?

[willk]

While woolgathering, I imagined how beneficial it would be if Society were to encourage some of the less desirable elements to burn off their combative tendencies in no-rules battles held in Public Arenas. I think I had something Romanesque in mind - but then a friend reminded me about Football. Apparently, I'd reinvented the wheel.

So maybe the F.A. is the answer?

(After Covid, obviously)

[willk]

More seriously, I think we're seeing the Beginning of the End for marine pyros. L-T made me examine my own past actions when he suggested deep sixing TEPs - and I've done this. Now I'm horrified! Pollution and the risk of the damn things getting washed up on a beach or hauled aboard a trawler being the obvious ones. I think we've arrived at a place where fly-tipping at sea is unpalatable to the majority. And, you know, illegal...

All of the safety concerns associated with pyros apply even more so to expired pyros - nobody and no agency wants them. I expect some hooks like GS4 will eventually get a contract to do it and make a balls of it.

I expect that the principle of Polluter Pays will eventually be brought to bear on this problem. There will be a huge jump in cost associated with using pyros and the marine industries will raise Cain. Shortly after that, SOLAS regs will be tweaked and the (by-then) perfectly good alternatives will be accepted as standard. No more burning tar barrels on deck

Oh, and an FYI - do you know what "Correct Disposal by the Relevant Authority" means regarding pyros?

In certain jurisdictions (no names), this means piling them up at the collection points until the box is full or stuff leaks out. They are then collected by squaddies and driven out into the lovely green countryside we hold so dear, where they are heaved into steel boxes, soaked in diesel and burned off over a period of hours. Charming.

[Pikey Dave]

I went “pyro-free” years ago, and then we took the RIB to Portugal & had to pyro-up to comply with the local regs. So once again I’m stuck with a set of out of date flares. Roll on 5/11[emoji6][emoji95]

[treerat]

I only carry hand hold smoke and pinpoint flares. When they go out of date they go home, get let off in the garden and then dropped in the water but for a week or so before being the cell being disposed of in industrial waste.

I can see parachutes being different issue but works for me.

Horrizontal underwater firing perhaps..............

[lakelandterrier]

I can't see an alternative for floating orange smoke......highly visible in day time, shows wind direction.

I do a time when LED flares will replace "traditional" flares", but not smoke. Is there a way of making them last longer - thus need to renew dispose of less frequently?

[fastasfox]

Wait for bonfire night ��
Then you can stand there...whoooo arrrrrrr ��

[Poly]

Now that can't be people just switching to PLBs and strobes, so there must be lots of pyrotechnics sitting in people's homes, myself included....

...Another interesting point is the Dft's preferred option is for industry self-regulation. Typical approach and won't achieve anything. I've tried taking expired flares back to a business that I bought them from and they wouldn't accept them.

And yet I've had not problem returning them when buying replacements (I think there was a charge of £1 per expired flare?). Whether you can expect "self-regulation" or have to pass legislation that suppliers must take returns too (or like WEEE regs pay into a scheme for returns). It seems pretty crazy that we are spending 1/4 million on getting rid of things most of us don't want anyway.

[treerat]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

I can't see an alternative for floating orange smoke......highly visible in day time, shows wind direction.

I do a time when LED flares will replace "traditional" flares", but not smoke. Is there a way of making them last longer - thus need to renew dispose of less frequently?

I set a couple off that were 15 years out of date and they smoked very well (middle of field, middle of countryside. The date is more about guarantee to fire if used (and stored) correctly as things break down after that point.

I get this on a parachute, but a hand helds seem to last forever and if you don't need them for coding, just as a back up / visual reference to the vhf, phone, plb then does it matter if the first doesn't fire?

[lakelandterrier]

Read the consultation.....only problem is none of the 4 options are viable, so we are asked to comment on "none of the above will work".

Can't say there's any original thought gone into this.

The law as it stands is un-enforceable - which means it's a bad law. People aren't encouraged to do the right thing, or given a practical option (or the thing govt wants).

The solution for me is to drive a 250 mile round trip to a drop-of point that when I get there my not be able to take the TEP because there's actually no one there or the bin is full. That's not a solution.

I do go back to how much environmental damage - in the scale of maritime pollution - does dep-sixing TEP - maybe encased in concrete - and in deep water actually do?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

Read the consultation.....only problem is none of the 4 options are viable, so we are asked to comment on "none of the above will work".

Can't say there's any original thought gone into this.

presumably this is the first government consultation you've encountered. On the scale of problems facing the DOT this is at the bottom of the list - so will be given to a fairly low ranking official to sort out. Low ranking officials aren't paid to be radical!.

The law as it stands is un-enforceable - which means it's a bad law.

which bit of which law is unenforceable? or do you mean not enforced (electing not to enforce is not the same as it not being enforceable if you decide to) or actually is it in fact not a law...

People aren't encouraged to do the right thing, or given a practical option (or the thing govt wants).

In the current situation there are two solutions one is inconvenient but free the other is convenient but may incur a small cost.

The solution for me is to drive a 250 mile round trip to a drop-of point that when I get there my not be able to take the TEP because there's actually no one there or the bin is full. That's not a solution.

1. They strongly encourage you to make an appointment, in which case presumably someone is there and the bin will have capacity; 2. for the vast majority of people they will be able to pass a MCA facility at some point within several months of the expiry without necessarily making a dedicated trip. Its not like you need to go there the day they expire; 3. Is there really no chandler offering a return service closer?

I do go back to how much environmental damage - in the scale of maritime pollution - does dep-sixing TEP - maybe encased in concrete - and in deep water actually do?

I think that's a pretty ridiculous question for anyone who uses our seas to be asking! Lets not dump shit in the sea just cos its tricky to do something responsible with it. The coastguard and bomb disposal guys spend far too much time dealing with ordinance and flares washed up on beaches as it is. Ah but you were going to be more responsible and stick it in a bucket of concrete I hear you cry - great so now it ends up in a trawlers net, or, given you've preumbably done no testing on the right amount of concrete or mix for deep sea disposal it breaks up after several years and very old flares start appearing at the surface. If you want to own pyrotechnic flares you have to accept that there is an inconvenience, and most likely a cost, for their disposal.

[willk]

You've missed his point, Poly. He's talking about dumping shit OUTSIDE the Environment...

https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

Read the consultation.....only problem is none of the 4 options are viable, so we are asked to comment on "none of the above will work".



Can't say there's any original thought gone into this.



The law as it stands is un-enforceable - which means it's a bad law. People aren't encouraged to do the right thing, or given a practical option (or the thing govt wants).



The solution for me is to drive a 250 mile round trip to a drop-of point that when I get there my not be able to take the TEP because there's actually no one there or the bin is full. That's not a solution.



I do go back to how much environmental damage - in the scale of maritime pollution - does dep-sixing TEP - maybe encased in concrete - and in deep water actually do?

Would you throw a plastic bottle or an empty metal oil drum overboard?

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

I do go back to how much environmental damage - in the scale of maritime pollution - does dep-sixing TEP - maybe encased in concrete - and in deep water actually do?

If you were to look at the Deepwater Horizon spill with sufficient scale in terms of time and area, does it matter and / or make a difference?

I don't think nowadays it is a responsible thing to do.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by GuyC

If you were to look at the Deepwater Horizon spill with sufficient scale in terms of time and area, does it matter and / or make a difference?



I don't think nowadays it is a responsible thing to do.

[emoji106]we live in a rural location with a public footpath running past the house. Last week mrsPD was in the kitchen when a family walked past with a “rat on a string” dog, the dog had a dump on the footpath, the woman did no more than pull out a tissue, wipe the dogs arse & throw the tissue in our hedge. MrsPD was out like a rat up an aqueduct. The woman said “it’s only a tissue & it’s got poo on it” needless to say, Mrs PD pointed out the error of her ways in typical Yorkshire fashion & the woman took possession of her shitty tissue.
No doubt the tissue would have degraded over time, but that’s not the point, it’s about respect & responsibility for your actions.
I’ll get off mi soap box....

Back to the point in question. I can’t comprehend how in this day and age we can still buy pyros, let alone be required to carry them by law in certain circumstances. Surely it’s time they were abandoned.
Just imagine if we’d never had them & some bloke appeared on Dragons Den & pitched them as an aid to safety at sea..” I’ve got this great idea, we carry these explosive devices around with us, that are potentially fatal. In an emergency we can light them, risking injury to life & limb. They last for about 30 seconds & we have to hope that someone sees it, recognises what they’ve seen & does something about it...”