New drink boating laws

[IBWET]

Pretty much on the money there (in my view)

How do you define the law to address the problem if you want to target one section only?

Sweeping keenjerk statements are always the results of not taking the time to define the law to achieve max effect with minimum disruption; it also has to be enforceable.

Look at the dangerous dogs act what a howler that was.

Give police more power, no targets, trainning on discretion with an emphasis on education. Not more bloody legislation.

Originally Posted by Tims Osprey

There is a huge difference between the responsible boat owner who enjoys a couple of beers or wines before setting out to sea than the irresponsible idiot that does the same before jumping in his speedboat or quite often a jetski, Then the idiot will nearly always try and show off by speeding up and down to close to other craft and bathers. I know that lots of other members will disagree with me but having fun while of coarse remaining responsible is what its all about, and if having a couple of beers along the way is part of that then why not? to many stiff necked kill joys out there today, hang lose, have fun and most of all be safe!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Why should someone in say Wales or Scotland or Northumberland etc where it is pretty quiet not have a few drinks when they are boating.?

Your argument doesn't really stack up. Scotland has has its fair share of drink related boating fatalities too. Accidents don't just involve hitting other boats (and even if it did unless you can garuntee you are the only boat it would be irrelevant) - recent tradgedies where drink was suggested to be a factor have included hitting a buoy at speed and sudden change of course as well as hitting the shore.

The 7 knot capability rule ties in with the thresholds for proper nav lights.

[Biggles]

Originally Posted by IBWET

Give police more power, no targets, trainning on discretion with an emphasis on education. Not more bloody legislation.

The Police is the Governments last great social experiment. No way its goig to go anyway back to the way of seeing many Bobbies on the beat. Too much legislation to keep up with so they need lots of training and too many empires to build for those that supply the training.

[bedajim]

As nobody on here would ever drink and drive/boat over the safe limit, this should not change our boating enjoyment should it

[MikeCC]

Note that the law only applies if a person:
(a) is on board a ship which is under way and
(b) is exercising, or purporting or attempting to exercise, a function in connection with the navigation of the ship

If you're moored up/berthed with no intention of going anywhere, then no problem.

The problem arises, as havener says, if you're anchored and conditions change after you've had a few beers and you need to move, you might be in trouble.

What's the concept of 'purporting' to navigate? 'Shorry offisher I was jusht trying to shteer away from the other boat'

I suspect it's more likely that any alcohol tests will be after an incident rather than random testing. However, if for example, a harbourmaster stops a boat and smells alcohol on the skippers breath, he can detain the person pending plod's arrival.

There's lots of if's and but's as with any new legislation. I'm sure that chap who gets slebs off motoring offences on technicalities will be rubbing his hands with glee.

[IBWET]

Funnily enough,this situation occured to us last saturday in one of the bays on the Isle of Bute.

25 large cruisers were on anchor during the saturday, where much fun was had diving off flybridges getting blathered, barbies on the beach etc all with the intention of staying over night on the anchor.

10.00pm came, everyone left the beach(by tender)to head back to boats in the bay.

Unfortunately after a lovely day weather wise the wind picked up I for one became nervous regarding the anchor holding, so decided to head back to the marina,within 10 seconds of seeing me do this, the VHF was alight with others thinking the same and all wanting to head back together.it's now pitch black.

Not a problem you may think,until someone was suspected of having a heart attack....(here the bit where everyone with rib sized bills feels good about it)
this particular gents boat was worth 1Mil when the anchor was lifted it (the boat) was blown onto the bow of another boat, big hole in the side (VHF, much swearing and calling of tits ) when it finally arrived back in the marina it was blown onto the potoon (big stress fracture down the side) then it ran aground

it's now 2.30am blowing F5 by 3.00am the water was like glass.

as an incidental he did'nt have a heart attack ,just knackered after a great day acting like a kid.

When we were on the beach we all were free from work worries etc, its one of the last freedoms, If this law come in we would all have broken it.

In future would the authorities be looking for moored boats and bad weather?

Originally Posted by MikeCC

Note that the law only applies if a person:
(a) is on board a ship which is under way and
(b) is exercising, or purporting or attempting to exercise, a function in connection with the navigation of the ship

If you're moored up/berthed with no intention of going anywhere, then no problem.

The problem arises, as havener says, if you're anchored and conditions change after you've had a few beers and you need to move, you might be in trouble.

What's the concept of 'purporting' to navigate? 'Shorry offisher I was jusht trying to shteer away from the other boat'

I suspect it's more likely that any alcohol tests will be after an incident rather than random testing. However, if for example, a harbourmaster stops a boat and smells alcohol on the skippers breath, he can detain the person pending plod's arrival.

There's lots of if's and but's as with any new legislation. I'm sure that chap who gets slebs off motoring offences on technicalities will be rubbing his hands with glee.

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by IBWET

Unfortunately after a lovely day weather wise the wind picked up I for one became nervous regarding the anchor holding, so decided to head back to the marina,within 10 seconds of seeing me do this, the VHF was alight with others thinking the same and all wanting to head back together.it's now pitch black.

So it wasn't the drinks' fault - it was your fault

[Mollers]

This is the week that a guy was acquitted here on a manslaughter rap for running another boat over. He'd been drinking as had the guys in the dory that he ran over. He'd been warned about his speed twice that day for exceeding the 8 knot limit, rather than following the central channel out of the estuary he cut the blind corner and hugged the coast. He didn't have his nav lights on!!. This guy was a twat, the only thing that kept him out of jail was the fact that the other guys had also been drinking.
There's a lot of money sloshing around these days, rather than learning on Dad's boat, having dinghys etc and moving up as one could afford it to bigger and better boats, people can fancy the idea, buy what ever they like and off they go with little if any training and no experience. Even a £1m gin palace.
We have 1 or two deaths or serious injuries around this area a year. Most can be attributed to owners/operators not having a clue. We can all tootal along on a nice sunny day no problem, but when the fog descends or the wind starts to howl it's a bit different.
So, rather than concentrating on drink (the easy option) why don't the government bring in compulsory training.

You see it all the time, young car salesmen , plastic window sellers, web designers and alike, turning up with £30K cruisers or bowriders, girls draped all over the boats. They blast around all over the Bay, not a clue. Next thing you read is that one of the girls was bounced out of the bowrider, run over by following boat, dead!

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Mollers

This is the week that a guy was acquitted here on a manslaughter rap for running another boat over. He'd been drinking as had the guys in the dory that he ran over. He'd been warned about his speed twice that day for exceeding the 8 knot limit, rather than following the central channel out of the estuary he cut the blind corner and hugged the coast. He didn't have his nav lights on!!. This guy was a twat, the only thing that kept him out of jail was the fact that the other guys had also been drinking.
There's a lot of money sloshing around these days, rather than learning on Dad's boat, having dinghys etc and moving up as one could afford it to bigger and better boats, people can fancy the idea, buy what ever they like and off they go with little if any training and no experience. Even a £1m gin palace.
We have 1 or two deaths or serious injuries around this area a year. Most can be attributed to owners/operators not having a clue. We can all tootal along on a nice sunny day no problem, but when the fog descends or the wind starts to howl it's a bit different.
So, rather than concentrating on drink (the easy option) why don't the government bring in compulsory training.

You see it all the time, young car salesmen , plastic window sellers, web designers and alike, turning up with £30K cruisers or bowriders, girls draped all over the boats. They blast around all over the Bay, not a clue. Next thing you read is that one of the girls was bounced out of the bowrider, run over by following boat, dead!

OK Breath, breath....

I do agree with a lot of what you have said and yes there are many people going out and buying craft that they don't have a clue on how to use.

There are definitely arguments for and against compulsory training.

The problem is, that if you bring in compulsory training, what about those of us - who have learnt how to sail with dad and have no official qualifications. I've just taken my PB2, but that doesn't give me the experience only the qualification. In my sailing world, there are many twats who have all the qualifications and yet couldn't sail for toffee.

On the other hand, a friend of mine has just gone out and bought a Jet Boat, it is really fast, he has no insurance, no experience and yes - he does drink. Firstly, I will never step foot on the boat and nor will any of my family but there is nothing to stop him doing this - other than me nagging him.

Look at the driving world - the driving test is getting harder and harder but I would argue that the driving is not getting any better.

I don't think we should generalise about the types of people who are buying the very expensive boats without experience.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

OK Breath, breath....

I do agree with a lot of what you have said and yes there are many people going out and buying craft that they don't have a clue on how to use.

There are definitely arguments for and against compulsory training.

The problem is, that if you bring in compulsory training, what about those of us - who have learnt how to sail with dad and have no official qualifications. I've just taken my PB2, but that doesn't give me the experience only the qualification. In my sailing world, there are many twats who have all the qualifications and yet couldn't sail for toffee.

On the other hand, a friend of mine has just gone out and bought a Jet Boat, it is really fast, he has no insurance, no experience and yes - he does drink. Firstly, I will never step foot on the boat and nor will any of my family but there is nothing to stop him doing this - other than me nagging him.

Look at the driving world - the driving test is getting harder and harder but I would argue that the driving is not getting any better.

I don't think we should generalise about the types of people who are buying the very expensive boats without experience.

I agree, I am generalising to make a point. Idiots on the road generally drive stupidly because they choose to. I don't believe that the majority of boat users act in a dangerous manner out of choice.As an example, If it were explained to matey that his girlfriend could get bounced out of the bow of his bowrider when crossing wake, and that his bestfriend in the world could then kill her by running over her. I reckon he'd have her safely in a seat beside him.
You can't buy experience, but you can pay to learn from someone that has it. Swimming off of bathing platforms with the engines running is another example. If it had been explained to Mr. Gin Palace that he could potentially chop his kids up, then he wouldn't do it. It happens.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

The problem is, that if you bring in compulsory training, what about those of us - who have learnt how to sail with dad and have no official qualifications. I've just taken my PB2, but that doesn't give me the experience only the qualification. In my sailing world, there are many twats who have all the qualifications and yet couldn't sail for toffee.

.

Same as on the road perhaps Dad can teach you but only a mandatry test gives you the ticket ?

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Mollers

I agree, I am generalising to make a point. Idiots on the road generally drive stupidly because they choose to. I don't believe that the majority of boat users act in a dangerous manner out of choice.As an example, If it were explained to matey that his girlfriend could get bounced out of the bow of his bowrider when crossing wake, and that his bestfriend in the world could then kill her by running over her. I reckon he'd have her safely in a seat beside him.
You can't buy experience, but you can pay to learn from someone that has it. Swimming off of bathing platforms with the engines running is another example. If it had been explained to Mr. Gin Palace that he could potentially chop his kids up, then he wouldn't do it. It happens.

Sad isn't it. We just have to realise that there really are a load of very silly people out there who don't appear to be able to see 'potential dangers'. The government then have to legislate which impeeds on everybody - great!

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Same as on the road perhaps Dad can teach you but only a mandatry test gives you the ticket ?

Yeah - perhaps you are right. I just don't think we can rely on qualifications to make people more responsible. Some people are just daft and do daft things!!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

The problem is, that if you bring in compulsory training, what about those of us - who have learnt how to sail with dad and have no official qualifications. I've just taken my PB2, but that doesn't give me the experience only the qualification. In my sailing world, there are many twats who have all the qualifications and yet couldn't sail for toffee.

Couldn't agree more. I was shocked just how basic the PB2 was - really didn't teach me anything. And yet someone with such a certificate would be deemed more competant than someone with 20 years experience - bonkers!!!

No doubt howls of protest but then again when you have a vested interest it's not suprising............

it's the same in the computer world - we come across people all the time with a massive list of qualifications - but they just don't have a clue - one Microsoft Certified Professional didn't even know how to create a new folder. An MCSE didn't know what to do with a RAR file!!!

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by codprawn

it's the same in the computer world - we come across people all the time with a massive list of qualifications - but they just don't have a clue - one Microsoft Certified Professional didn't even know how to create a new folder. An MCSE didn't know what to do with a RAR file!!!

Surely you go 'RARRRRRRRRRR' - sorry couldn't resist it.

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Couldn't agree more. I was shocked just how basic the PB2 was - really didn't teach me anything. And yet someone with such a certificate would be deemed more competant than someone with 20 years experience - bonkers!!!

No doubt howls of protest but then again when you have a vested interest it's not suprising............

it's the same in the computer world - we come across people all the time with a massive list of qualifications - but they just don't have a clue - one Microsoft Certified Professional didn't even know how to create a new folder. An MCSE didn't know what to do with a RAR file!!!

Then the level of information taught would need to be cranked up as in the road driving test. What else can be done? Only allow people on the water who's father owned a boat?
Chasing some guy that had a couple of beers and a glass of wine at a beach bbq isn't gonna make a jot of difference.
The guy that cut the corner down here would probably have done the same sober.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Some people are just daft and do daft things!!

[walruz]

Originally Posted by Mollers

This is the week that a guy was acquitted here on a manslaughter rap for running another boat over. He'd been drinking as had the guys in the dory that he ran over. He'd been warned about his speed twice that day for exceeding the 8 knot limit, rather than following the central channel out of the estuary he cut the blind corner and hugged the coast. He didn't have his nav lights on!!. This guy was a twat, the only thing that kept him out of jail was the fact that the other guys had also been drinking.
There's a lot of money sloshing around these days, rather than learning on Dad's boat, having dinghys etc and moving up as one could afford it to bigger and better boats, people can fancy the idea, buy what ever they like and off they go with little if any training and no experience. Even a £1m gin palace.
We have 1 or two deaths or serious injuries around this area a year. Most can be attributed to owners/operators not having a clue. We can all tootal along on a nice sunny day no problem, but when the fog descends or the wind starts to howl it's a bit different.
So, rather than concentrating on drink (the easy option) why don't the government bring in compulsory training.

You see it all the time, young car salesmen , plastic window sellers, web designers and alike, turning up with £30K cruisers or bowriders, girls draped all over the boats. They blast around all over the Bay, not a clue. Next thing you read is that one of the girls was bounced out of the bowrider, run over by following boat, dead!

I know the guy concerned and believe me he lives with the results of his actions every day of his life,but he is not a twat.

I'm not defending what he did, especially as he earns his living from the sea, but sometimes we all do BL00DY stupid things that we regret later.

I have no qualifications to drive my boat but recon I am better than most of the idiots who come down this way and am very careful. I can only afford second hand boat and reconditioned engine but it probably has more value to me than someone who has spent £50k plus and so take care of her and drive with consideration to other sea users.

The problem I have with this proposed law is there is 1 (yes ONE) pub on this island and most of the others so if you want a change of scene you have the choice of £60 in hiring charter boats, stay over night in a hotel/B&B or be careful and take your own.

Doesn't leave you many choices does it?

[Mollers]

Originally Posted by walruz

I know the guy concerned and believe me he lives with the results of his actions every day of his life,but he is not a twat.

I'm not defending what he did, especially as he earns his living from the sea, but sometimes we all do BL00DY stupid things that we regret later.

I have no qualifications to drive my boat but recon I am better than most of the idiots who come down this way and am very careful. I can only afford second hand boat and reconditioned engine but it probably has more value to me than someone who has spent £50k plus and so take care of her and drive with consideration to other sea users.

The problem I have with this proposed law is there is 1 (yes ONE) pub on this island and most of the others so if you want a change of scene you have the choice of £60 in hiring charter boats, stay over night in a hotel/B&B or be careful and take your own.

Doesn't leave you many choices does it?

I'm sure he 'lives' with what he's done and if he's a professional boatman, that in many ways makes what he did worse, He didn't just do a 'bloody stupid thing' he spent the day being a twat. Twice he was spoken to by St. Mawes Harbour Master. He'd been drinking all day and helming the boat like an idiot all day. The family of Ben Chocrane have a fair bit to live with aswell.

[Tims Osprey]

Accidents will happen and thats part of life unfortunately, stupid new laws will not stop them happening, since when did this country's stupid laws make our streets any safer? or anything any better, no far from it is the answer i'm afraid. We need positive people with common sense to bring in laws that will actually make a difference for the better and not the blind negative minded kill joys that dictate to us all at the momment