New MAIB Safety Digest - including RIB incident

Poly · 02 December 2006, 21:34

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...re%20craft.pdf

Last "article" includes the findings of the RIB accident originally reported on RIBnet here http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14245

All the usual stuff about drinking and boating, understanding the handling characteristics. However their are also comments on the suitability of the life jackets worn (both were wearing PFDs).

The driver WAS wearing the kill cord - but the MAIB imply that as it was attached round his WRIST it got tangled and so failed to operate.

codprawn · 02 December 2006, 23:03

Always useful reading - learn by the mistakes of others.

They weren't both wearing PFDs - the poor bloke who died was wearing a 150N lifejacket - but a manually inflated one. For some reason he didn't inflate it even though he was alive for a while. the person who survived WAS wearing a PFD so you could say a PFD is better than a manual 150N jacket!!!

As to the kill cord it could just as easily got stuck around something if clipped on elsewhere.

They mention drink as a factor but I am not so sure. He was 2x the road limit for driving but that didn't seem to be a factor. This was a tragic ACCIDENT and I don't think any amount of hindsight could have prevented it.

Poly · 03 December 2006, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

They weren't both wearing PFDs - the poor bloke who died was wearing a 150N lifejacket - but a manually inflated one. For some reason he didn't inflate it even though he was alive for a while. the person who survived WAS wearing a PFD so you could say a PFD is better than a manual 150N jacket!!!

I was using PFD in the generic sense of "personal flotation device" as they would (I believe) in the US (and I think elsewhere too) - which covers both bouyancy aids and life jackets. Appologies if I confused you.

Quote:

As to the kill cord it could just as easily got stuck around something if clipped on elsewhere.

I'm not convinced of that. I do think it is more likely to get tangled round the wrist. But I think the point is - if it is securely attached to leg or PFD then it is much less likely to come off during "ejection" than if it only has to slip off the wrist.

Quote:

They mention drink as a factor but I am not so sure. He was 2x the road limit for driving but that didn't seem to be a factor.

They certainly didn't dwell on it the way they have in other reports. But they do suggest it may have contributed to the initial event in the chain. It may also have contributed to the driver not inflating his life jacket and/or his ability to survive whilst awaiting rescue.

Quote:

This was a tragic ACCIDENT and I don't think any amount of hindsight could have prevented it.

I agree it was an accident but I think there are lessons to be learnt and declaring something as simply an accident suggests the outcome cannot be avoided in the future - which contradicts your opening statement:

Quote:

Always useful reading - learn by the mistakes of others.

Biggles · 03 December 2006, 00:23

I have read the report and take issue with the statement that it was a nice spring day. I was out on a RIB that day in the West Solent during lunch time. Having launched in Southampton I went to the Needles, visited yarmouth briefly and returned to Southampton. In my view it wasn't a very nice day at all. Okay it wasn't raining but it was breezy and it was cold. Off the Needles there was a big swell, with large rollers coming in. Bad enough for me to not hang around in them. I did hear of this report later on when I got home and I immediately thought that if the guys were in the drink for more than 10 minutes without a drysuit they would probably die.

Without seeing the proper report which is usually very detailed it would be unfair to pass judgement on anything that happened that day. This report is almost like a poster. Usually the reports are very detailed and it seems this one is missing much of the finer print.

Richard B · 03 December 2006, 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

As to the kill cord it could just as easily got stuck around something if clipped on elsewhere.

My own experience moves me to disagree with you here - I've tried various points for attaching the killcord and found that the wrist was the worst, the lifejacket the most secure but most difficult to attach and detach, and around the knee to be the best as it has never snagged on anything for me.[/I]

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

They mention drink as a factor but I am not so sure. He was 2x the road limit for driving but that didn't seem to be a factor.

I think that you'll find that you're contradicting medical fact here - IIRC you are more at risk of hypothermia if you have been drinking. Where's that Manning bloke when you need him?

Downhilldai · 03 December 2006, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

.... Where's that Manning bloke when you need him?

Probably down the pub

Richard B · 03 December 2006, 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downhilldai

Probably down the pub

In that case I hope he's got his drysuit and lifejacket with him, it's stormy out there tonight!

Downhilldai · 03 December 2006, 01:21

He'll only be wet on the inside

Biggles · 03 December 2006, 01:34

As with all reports its always good to be wise after the event. sorry to hear someone died, but if we worried about every risk we took wouldn't life be boring.
Whats worrying is the fact that the killcord didn't work, which left the two guys without a means of getting out of the water, because the boat carried on its merry way, and subsequently one of the poor guys froze to death.
Irrelevant of alchohol issues or lifejacket issues to me the kill cord working properly might have saved them.
Thats the issue that should be looked at more in my mind, and its probably one that should be thought about more by all us RIBSTERs than anything else.
Being in a high speed boat in rough seas is fun but when you fall out of it some means of getting back in is required. I have often mulled over this because I have personal experience of struggling to get back in to a RIB. Firstly I think we need to make sure the killcord is going to work. Then we need a means of getting back on the stationary boat. I don't think swimming is one of those options unless its dead calm. My answer would be to have an extending line on our lifejacket that we could pull on to get ourselves back to the boat. And by extending line I mean one that is perhaps 50 meters long and not one that the yachties use. It might not be feasable most of the time but if your going to have some fun in big waves then I think it should be considered part of your safety equipment along with a lifejacket and for us RIBSTERs a drysuit.

prairie tuber · 03 December 2006, 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

- IIRC you are more at risk of hypothermia if you have been drinking.

Absolutely correct. Alcohol will cause the blood vessels at the extemities to dilate which will take blood away from the body core. You will 'feel' warmer, however body core temperature will drop much more quickly.

codprawn · 03 December 2006, 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Being in a high speed boat in rough seas is fun but when you fall out of it some means of getting back in is required. I have often mulled over this because I have personal experience of struggling to get back in to a RIB. Firstly I think we need to make sure the killcord is going to work. Then we need a means of getting back on the stationary boat. I don't think swimming is one of those options unless its dead calm. My answer would be to have an extending line on our lifejacket that we could pull on to get ourselves back to the boat. And by extending line I mean one that is perhaps 50 meters long and not one that the yachties use. It might not be feasable most of the time but if your going to have some fun in big waves then I think it should be considered part of your safety equipment along with a lifejacket and for us RIBSTERs a drysuit.

This has I think been talked about before. I would be worried about getting tangled up in the line but the chances of swimming back to the boat in a strong wind are pretty remote.

John Kennett · 03 December 2006, 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

My own experience moves me to disagree with you here - I've tried various points for attaching the killcord and found that the wrist was the worst, the lifejacket the most secure but most difficult to attach and detach, and around the knee to be the best as it has never snagged on anything for me.

I agree. I don't consider the wrist to be a suitable place for attaching a kill cord for two reasons: it tends to snag on the steering wheel, and it's likely to come off when you need it most.

Clipping onto the lifejacket is secure, but I've found that it still tends to get in the way. Round the knee keeps it secure and out of the way - that's my choice every time.

John

Nos4r2 · 03 December 2006, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

As with all reports its always good to be wise after the event. sorry to hear someone died, but if we worried about every risk we took wouldn't life be boring.

Yep. TThere but for the grace of god go most of us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Whats worrying is the fact that the killcord didn't work, which left the two guys without a means of getting out of the water, because the boat carried on its merry way, and subsequently one of the poor guys froze to death.
Irrelevant of alchohol issues or lifejacket issues to me the kill cord working properly might have saved them.

I'd go along with that-particularly as they had apparently just made a sharp turn. The boat can't have been travelling particularly fast at the point of ejection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Thats the issue that should be looked at more in my mind, and its probably one that should be thought about more by all us RIBSTERs than anything else.
Being in a high speed boat in rough seas is fun but when you fall out of it some means of getting back in is required. I have often mulled over this because I have personal experience of struggling to get back in to a RIB. Firstly I think we need to make sure the killcord is going to work.

Yes. May I suggest btw if you're wearing slippery clothes (membrane drysuit,oilskins etc that possibly the leg/knee isn't the best place to have it attached unless it's held there in some way.I've had mine slip down on several occasions and it could easily have slipped off my foot if I went overboard at that moment. Maybe the crotchstrap of a lifejacket or a dedicated loop for the cord attached to the knee of the clothing? It'd only be a few minutes job to do with some drysuit glue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Then we need a means of getting back on the stationary boat. I don't think swimming is one of those options unless its dead calm. My answer would be to have an extending line on our lifejacket that we could pull on to get ourselves back to the boat. And by extending line I mean one that is perhaps 50 meters long and not one that the yachties use. It might not be feasable most of the time but if your going to have some fun in big waves then I think it should be considered part of your safety equipment along with a lifejacket and for us RIBSTERs a drysuit.

I'm going to disagree with that particular method-simply because as you hit the water there's no garuantee which way you'll land, whether you'll tumble or skip across the surface if at a particularly high speed etc. It's bloody hard to untangle yourself from a rope while in the water (done it and it was NOT a fun incident

) and IMO it'd be even harder if the rope was tensioned.

You're right-the boat isn't going to make more than 50 metres with no power immediately after MOB though.
I DO however have an idea. What about a simple form of line-thrower (spring loaded perhaps?) that would throw a floating line 50 or so metres directly astern-or maybe aimable-controlled by a waterproof car alarm type keyfob with a dsc type cover over the buttons? Something like this Restech pneumatic line thrower with a remote button-or even a cord like a killcord which would be attached to the person nearest the unit.

Ian M · 03 December 2006, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Yep. TThere but for the grace of god go most of us.

I'd go along with that-particularly as they had apparently just made a sharp turn. The boat can't have been travelling particularly fast at the point of ejection.

Yes. May I suggest btw if you're wearing slippery clothes (membrane drysuit,oilskins etc that possibly the leg/knee isn't the best place to have it attached unless it's held there in some way.I've had mine slip down on several occasions and it could easily have slipped off my foot if I went overboard at that moment. Maybe the crotchstrap of a lifejacket or a dedicated loop for the cord attached to the knee of the clothing? It'd only be a few minutes job to do with some drysuit glue.

I'm going to disagree with that particular method-simply because as you hit the water there's no garuantee which way you'll land, whether you'll tumble or skip across the surface if at a particularly high speed etc. It's bloody hard to untangle yourself from a rope while in the water (done it and it was NOT a fun incident

) and IMO it'd be even harder if the rope was tensioned.

You're right-the boat isn't going to make more than 50 metres with no power immediately after MOB though.
I DO however have an idea. What about a simple form of line-thrower (spring loaded perhaps?) that would throw a floating line 50 or so metres directly astern-or maybe aimable-controlled by a waterproof car alarm type keyfob with a dsc type cover over the buttons? Something like this Restech pneumatic line thrower with a remote button-or even a cord like a killcord which would be attached to the person nearest the unit.

Er, I'm hanving enough trouble with consoles, without having to think about mounting a turret on top

Nos4r2 · 03 December 2006, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian M

Er, I'm hanving enough trouble with consoles, without having to think about mounting a turret on top

You couldn't do that-Someone come along and shoot you 8 times in the head

It'd be a simple enough job to attach a line-thrower directly to the a-frame pointing astern though.

Alex Brown · 03 December 2006, 10:41

That's quite a large unit for line throwing

We carry these on the tug at work which are quite a bit smaller - http://www.pwss.com/products/product...137&ProdID=206

-Alex

Nos4r2 · 03 December 2006, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Brown

That's quite a large unit for line throwing

We carry these on the tug at work which are quite a bit smaller - http://www.pwss.com/products/product...137&ProdID=206

-Alex

Are they refillable or one use only? I've never used one.The reason I highlighted the other one is it just needs to be charged with air-ie a lot cheaper.

Poly · 03 December 2006, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biggles

Without seeing the proper report which is usually very detailed it would be unfair to pass judgement on anything that happened that day. This report is almost like a poster. Usually the reports are very detailed and it seems this one is missing much of the finer print.

I agree with that - but on this occassion I think this might be all we are going to get. It is no longer mentioned under the "current investigations" section. Not all incidents result in a detailed investigation/report.

Jimbo · 03 December 2006, 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard B

I think that you'll find that you're contradicting medical fact here - IIRC you are more at risk of hypothermia if you have been drinking. Where's that Manning bloke when you need him?

Actually, the man you need right now is Doug Stormforce. This came up in conversation last week while I was on one of his sailing yachts - he'd just been to a lecture with the UK's leading cold water expert Mike Tipton, (if any of you have done a First Aid Course or Sea Survival Course and seen the video Cold Water Casualty - that was Mike Tipton) who stated (and I'm sure Doug will correct me if I'm wrong) that alcohol had no effect on how likely you are to suffer hypothermia.

prairie tuber · 03 December 2006, 15:32

A fellow I know from grad school has become one of the worlds best known researchers on hypothermia. He has done extensive cold water immersion studies, more often than not using himself as a lab rat (he did this on Letterman once). Here is a link to 3 'in field' videos he has made with regard to cold water immersion survival. Some very useful info here.

http://www.yukonman.com/cold_water.asp