New RIB design? - Page 4

Adam Younger · 16 March 2005, 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

How many variables can you have on a deep V hull of a certain length and beam?

Surely it is a case of someone trying to reinvent the wheel?

I would have thought that one reason for so many similar hulls is down to modern CAD programs - in a similar way so many modern cars look the same as they have been styled in the wind tunnel.

I disagree with you pretty strongly on this!

There are many variables and they need to be integrated into what is trying to be achieved with a particular design. At the same time engines, structures, tubes etc etc evolve - so this all has to be taken into account with the design process.
So no it is not trying to re-invent the wheel. Many RIBs may look similar but there can be fairly significant changes that are not obvious to all.

With regards to CAD programs they do not design the craft - it may make it easier to draw a basic hull - but if you are really designing you will be in control of the data going in and the data coming out. There is no simple way that a program that designs your boat - unless you are using existing data from a previous or stock design. The designer is still in control of interpretating all data to make sure that the craft produced is suitable for its requirements.

It is a very complex path - unless you are off course copying (re-inventing the wheel).

Dirk Diggler · 16 March 2005, 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Younger

This really sums up why the whole case of splashing is so offensive to Designers.

Adam

Adam, it's Probably a stupid question, but out of interest who do you use to mould your ribs?

And going back to the "is it or isn't it" question, surely the correct thing to do if it's proven to be a splash, is Mr Leeway publicly destroying the mould of his rib. After all, surely no self respecting ribber would be interested in buying one if it's proven to be a fraud.

codprawn · 16 March 2005, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Younger

I disagree with you pretty strongly on this!

There are many variables and they need to be integrated into what is trying to be achieved with a particular design. At the same time engines, structures, tubes etc etc evolve - so this all has to be taken into account with the design process.
So no it is not trying to re-invent the wheel. Many RIBs may look similar but there can be fairly significant changes that are not obvious to all.

With regards to CAD programs they do not design the craft - it may make it easier to draw a basic hull - but if you are really designing you will be in control of the data going in and the data coming out. There is no simple way that a program that designs your boat - unless you are using existing data from a previous or stock design. The designer is still in control of interpretating all data to make sure that the craft produced is suitable for its requirements.

It is a very complex path - unless you are off course copying (re-inventing the wheel).

I still say that with all the designs that have gone before coming up with a truly NEW design is not easy.

Just read an article where Regal boats are being sued by someone who patented a stepped hull design in 1990 - Regal claim that by adding a few strakes and modifying the profile it is a NEW design - mmmm!!!

To take matters further stepped hulls were quite common in powerboat racing in the 30s and seemed to originate in Seaplane floats and flying boat hull - why I didn't think of it sooner when I have flown in a few seaplanes I don't know - just look at a Shorts sunderland for example!!!

gtflash · 16 March 2005, 19:25

whats the deadrise on a phantom?? is it a constant v?? does that info compare to leeways statistics....??

Richard B · 16 March 2005, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtflash

whats the deadrise on a phantom?? is it a constant v?? does that info compare to leeways statistics....??

GT, as far as I know, Phantoms are a warped V, but Jonny will certainly know...

Can I just add that Leeway has certainly come in with a splash announcing his new RIB design!

Rogue Wave · 16 March 2005, 20:13

I find myself Quite often looking at Spray rails and thinking what the Fkk am I doing in the water again!

Matt · 16 March 2005, 20:30

Classic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I find myself Quite often looking at Spray rails and thinking what the Fkk am I doing in the water again!

Rogue Wave · 16 March 2005, 20:33

You can well believe that ws the biggest splash the IOW has seen for a while!

LeewayComposite · 16 March 2005, 21:55

sorry i have not read all the thread as i got bored.....

take a look at this.......

it could also be a picton like this boat maybe?

LeewayComposite · 16 March 2005, 22:14

can we keep this thread going as im getting lots of advitising and orders are coming in fast

Jonny Fuller · 16 March 2005, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

take a look at this.......

it could also be a picton like this boat maybe?

there are fundimental differences between, your 'unique' rib, and that picture you've posted, these may not be obvious to a layman, or indeed a laminator, but I guarantee, Adam, Matt, JK, and countless others can see it, just as I can.

Codprawn. you are so wrong!

Jono · 16 March 2005, 22:32

I can't see the difference... but then I know Jack Shit about boats..... just don't argue with me about the properties of different steels though.....

A Feck... too much vino... I'm orf... see you kids in the morning....

King_C · 16 March 2005, 22:51

So now im confused.

Jonny,
Are you saying it is the same as the picton or isnt?

What boat do people think hes copying?

Does it count as a real splash if his hull is for a rib and the company hes splashed only does hardboats?

Personally I like the design wether its splashed or not but if its taken off a hardboat then i cud see how if word gets around that its splashed then it could help him with orders because people that like the style of that hard boat but want a rib will be buying it.

Adam Younger · 16 March 2005, 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

I still say that with all the designs that have gone before coming up with a truly NEW design is not easy.

Just read an article where Regal boats are being sued by someone who patented a stepped hull design in 1990 - Regal claim that by adding a few strakes and modifying the profile it is a NEW design - mmmm!!!

To take matters further stepped hulls were quite common in powerboat racing in the 30s and seemed to originate in Seaplane floats and flying boat hull - why I didn't think of it sooner when I have flown in a few seaplanes I don't know - just look at a Shorts sunderland for example!!!

True - a lot of things that are claimed as revolutionary are not all and have been around in some form or another a long time ago. Often not that successfully due to poor execution or because of the advances we have since seen in materials and mechanical efficiency.

There really was some fascinating experimantal designs created many decades ago.

But there is still room to create new features and ideas - it really is what fascinates me about hull design.

paul tilley · 16 March 2005, 22:58

just a point of interest as leeway is getting lots of orders , is this boat CE marked or does it not need it as it is only being sold as a hull and tubes ?? PS we dont get all this discussion when we retube a rib!!!!

LeewayComposite · 16 March 2005, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul tilley

just a point of interest as leeway is getting lots of orders , is this boat CE marked or does it not need it as it is only being sold as a hull and tubes ?? PS we dont get all this discussion when we retube a rib!!!!

hi Paul,
Thank you for asking this qiuestion as quite a few of my customers ask the very question....

she is ce approved to a category C. all regulations have been followed. she 100% conforms to BS EN ISO 6185 part 3. and I have owners manual hin number (registered with bmf) builders plates. she has been fully assessed for stability and buoyancy. i have all papper work up together. even the decloration of conformaty.

so if you want one as well I'll add your name to the list? there will be a deposit to pay (of course)

LeewayComposite · 16 March 2005, 23:26

sorry forgot, in the owners manual there is even a registration form. please make sure you fill this in correctly as it could void your full guarantee..

Rogue Wave · 16 March 2005, 23:34

You can always count on the young to give you the full benefit of their inexperience!

No he isn't saying it's the same as a Picton

If you look at a hardboat and a rib under way and on the plane I think you may find that it's the same bits left in the water i.e the running surfaces so I feel that somewhat negates your argument re hardboat hulls and rib hulls

The amount of royalties that a boat designer could expect for a 20 foot hull being produced by other companies isn't huge, probably less than a grand so why not pay for a licensed product and ensure that the designer continues to profit from his intelectual effort and craftsmansip, as opposed to giving up boat design and using his brains to be an Estate Agent or some other lucrative calling.

The reason why the guy that designed Phantoms (a hugely succesful hull design and very affordable ) no longer designs boats is that he was tired of being spalshed and the money he was making wasn't worth the hassle. The Phantom range went from 16 feet to 30 feet and probably won more world and national championships than I've had birthdays! Can you imagine the superb qualities a range of ribs from that guy would be only it aint gonna happen cos he doesn't want to design boats anymore. If you want a taster of what might have been trial a Phantom Evolution!

Jonny Fuller · 16 March 2005, 23:41

It is a splash of a Phantom 18

To try and understand the priciple of having a design stolen, whatever the intended use, imagine having taken many hundreds of hours slaving over a wooden plug, getting every aspect of it perfect and true to the drawings you've produced in the hope that it will fulfill your needs, in this case, for racing/fast pleasure. after what was probably many months of fettling the new form, and preparing it for 'taking a mould' you throw more time and money into first, making the mould itself, then all the time & cost of producing a boat from the mould, then fitting the boat out, so that you can finally get to test all the theory you've been banking on.

lets say for arguments sake, on testing, there are characteristics you're not totaly happy with, now you must take the finished boat and make modifications to it, maybe many times over until you're completely happy, now you'll have to fair the hull, which you've stripped out again, so that you can take another mould for producing the production run of boats.

This process is usually very slow, very expensive, and risky, after all, it may be a complete flop, in which case, your gamble didn't pay off and it's back to the drawing board, and all your investment (time and Money) have gone!

Now you proven design begins to sell, hopefully you'll sell enough to re-coup the enormous outlay of the development and actually make some money.

Now you're as happy as a pig in shit, and feeling pretty pleased with yourself.

Then, fred bloggs finds a nice cheap second hand boat (of the model you've very kindly designed, developed, produced the tooling, paid for, and proved successful) spends few measely bob waxing it, and takes a mould from it, and in a few weeks is producing the very same boat, usually to a low standard of workmanship, and cheaper (coz he has no investment to re-coup) and starts selling them.

If fredd bloggs only bothers to steal the running surface, say, for a rib, it's not really any less anoying, coz thats the bit that took all the development, and this is the very reason the thief steals it in the first place, it's the valuable bit, and if he doesn't have the know how to design himself, he'd have to pay someone else to do it!

And trust me, having the skill to knock up a wonky old console plug, is a world apart from the skill required to build an accurate plug required for a successful racing hull, even if you do have the drawings.

most splashers make one or two small alterations to the moulding claiming it to now be 'their design' after all, they've changed it, it's a different boat now.

Trying to sue these types is almost impossible, and costs the earth, something the average cottage industry british boatbuilder simply cannot afford to do. also, as soon as any threat looms to the splasher (usually an even smaller firm) they just go pop, and re-appear a month later, working out of another lock-up, under a new name and start over, all your legal fees and heartache from your original case are history! and there's really fkk all you can do about it.

The few talented and successfull boatbuilders we have in this country deserve more respect than this, and the 'splashers' are no more than parasites!

I for one hate to see any thief make any sort of profit from their low life activities, be it a splasher, a common burglar, or maybe a car stereo thief!

when you get your £400 car hi-fi stolen, does it give you a warm feeling knowing the scumbag can now afford some fags and a big mac with the 20 quid he got for your stereo?

King_C · 16 March 2005, 23:53

Yeh i see the point!

And im not going to pass judgement on wetha it is or isnt a splashed design because looking at it i dont really no enough to see any differences anyway.

If it is splashed then i see it only fair that the splashee (dont think thats a word but u get the point) pays some dues to the original designer, but if its a company that does good hardboat hulls but doesnt make ribs then the splahsed hull is filling a nich in the market where rib fans may have though 'i like that boat but i want a rib' so if both splashee and original designer could come to an agreement they would both gain aswell as giving each other future prospects of working together and therefore in the long run it would be better for the splashee to ask permission and come to an agreement with the original designer.