New RIB design?

[Alan]

I'm guessing Royal Institute of Naval Architects. RINA geddit?
As for who he is - puck nose.

[Matt]

Rina, or whoever you are, you have obviously missed the point. None of Adam's boat designs have involved taking a mold off an existing boat to which he doesn't own the rights. This has been the entire point Jon has been atempting to make throughout. Sadly people let personal vendatta's cloud their judgement of right and wrong and seem all to keen to resort to name calling.
As I am sure you are aware, there is a world of difference between similar and an exact copy, and I'm very disappointed, if you are who you say you are, that you are not 100% down the line to protect every designers rights.

If a boat were a film, and I bought a DVD of the film, re-edited myself, could I justifiably sell it on as my own production? Of course not. In that respect, the debate about splashing is an open and shut case.

There is a HUGE investment in designing and buildin a plug, mold & hull, if you really are a RINA member, you OF ALL PEOPLE should be supporting designers rights.

This is not about 'Similar'. This is about taking 1 or more moldings off an existing hull, to which you don't have the rights, to create your own. I can't believe that EVERYONE on rib.net is not rallying to the cause. Regardless of whether or not leeway has splashed a phantom 18, which I still believe he has, the whole concept of splashing is wrong at every level. You do not deserve to be a RINA member if you disagree, since the only way you can agree with splashing is if you are guilty of it yourself, or have no moral judgement.

[Jono]

Mat? wasn't that just a tad "long winded"? Can't we just stick with name calling?...... It's more amusing for me on this particularly unpleasant afternoon. I have just spent a couple of hours sat in an office whilst my Solicitor slugged it out with the complainant's brief... and as I was under orders NOT to open my mouth... you can't imagine how hard that was for me... I'm feeling in need of some entertainment.....

[Matt]

Unfortunately my post's are never as eloquent as some of your classics, but I do my best.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Andre

.... and our new member Bill Gates gave JF a run for his money

No he didn't. I've just read that thread in the interests of getting a balanced view and all "Bill" did was make himself look like a tit.

[Anne Robinson mode on] Why oh why, do all the feckin' stupid post come from people who give themselves crap "noms de plume" ? [Anne Robinson mode off]

Andre, after the few "posts" we have exchanged, I must say that I thought more of you than calling for JF to be banned because he doesn't fall into line. Yes, he can be an annoying twat at times (can't we all?)..but that doesn't make his view any less valuable does it?
I noticed that none of his post contained anything particularly offensive in terms of personal insults or, as far as I can tell, any lies so why call for a ban?

[King_C]

I agree with Mats idea with DVDs but at the same time if the films are edited enough then they can often be classed as a different film even if they have the same basis.

I dont know how much change has been made to leeways design but surely theres a point where he can be let off having 'splashed' it if there are enough differences?!

[noah]

So out of everyone in the "sanctemoniuous mode" then. No one has ever tried to take a mould off a petrol tank they owned, but had no right to copy.

Fitted patent brake pads, fan belts, gaskets. All genuine parts were they??.

:-)

[Jono]

Originally Posted by noah

....
Fitted patent brake pads, fan belts, gaskets. All genuine parts were they??.

:-)

Just checked an' all my parts are "patent pending"... is that a bad thing?

[Matt]

True enough, however the original copyright holder still has rights to any and all the original footage used in the 'new' film, which is my point. To consider the 'looks a bit like' thing - if you film the scene yourself, you can justifiably call it your own, even it it's similar to footage someone else may also have filmed.

So if you are following all the design steps on a hull - you can reasonably call it your own, even if it's very similar to existing models. But the second you are taking a mold off someone elses existing hull, it's no longer your design.

It is possible to get into a grey area - if I took measurements from an existing hull to make my own plug, is this still a splash? That's another debate. The accusation that leeway has splashed a phantom still stands, and leeway has not been inclined to provide any evidence to the contrary, even though he's only too keen to show step by step photo's of his console.

Originally Posted by King_C

I agree with Mats idea with DVDs but at the same time if the films are edited enough then they can often be classed as a different film even if they have the same basis.

I dont know how much change has been made to leeways design but surely theres a point where he can be let off having 'splashed' it if there are enough differences?!

[King_C]

Yeh fair play.

I was thinking about the grey area....are we sure he didnt jus take the measurements then built his own mould and modify it slightly?

[Dirk Diggler]

What I find most puzzling is that only a few months ago Leeway was on Boatmad looking for a Phantom 18 with which to make a rib, and in what can only be described as an amazingly short time (boatbuilder hours don't forget), he's not only managed to design a rib, he's also built a plug, a mould, a hull, and then had it tubed. What is even more amazing is that he's also had it CE approved including bouyancy and stability tests, and even written an owners manual.

Rather than criticising the guy, I think someone should employ him!

Hey Leeway, your not Greek are you?

[LeewayComposite]

can somebody in the know please tell me the outlines as to what a splasher is?

<<<AND>>>

if someone takes a raffshore, Chaudron, phantom, cut and shut with another make of boat, changes its size, makes improvements, completely changes all internal structural design, flange, transom, deck and make it into a rib. is this not now a new design?

PLEASE DO NOT ANSWER QUESTION IF YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!! I WANT FACTS NOT FICTION....

also a company in America took a hull put a new top on it.a law court said that is fine as it is a new design now?? anybody know about this??

AGAIN.....IDIOTs NEED NOT APPLY. ONLY FACTS NO FICTION.....

[Jonny Fuller]

Obviously, the whole splashing thing annoys me, but I'm also a realist, and am fully aware it goes on every day.

a quick look At this thread shows it's also happening just a few yards from the gates of Phantom boats in kent.

The only reason my attention was drawn to this particular case, was that Leeway made a huge point of him being 'the designer', despite posting requests for a 'cheap doner 20ish foot phantom', a few months earlier.

JK is right, it's all gotten fkkn silly now.

On boatmad, we're compiling a list of boats and their designers, quite intersting, and although Leeway was the catalist that started the compilation, it's gonna be pretty informative, splashers aside!

JF

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

can somebody in the know please tell me the outlines as to what a splasher is?

As far as I know there isn't a formal definition as the term hasn't made it into the Oxford English Dictionary (although if we carry on like this, that might change!)

Some would say that splashing only refers to making a direct copy of an existing boat, but I think it's a broader term than that.

How about this for a definition: "using a an existing hull, or part of an existing hull, to produce the mould for a boat without permission from the owner of the design rights"

Perhaps we could come up with an agreed definition between us all (although I suspectthat might be a bit optimistic given the tone of previous posts!)

if someone takes a raffshore, Chaudron, phantom, cut and shut with another make of boat, changes its size, makes improvements, completely changes all internal structural design, flange, transom, deck and make it into a rib. is this not now a new design?

If a car repair shop took the front of a Mondeo and stuck the back of a Vectra on to it they might call it a "new" design. It might even be unique. It probably wouldn't look much different, and for all I know, it might even be an improvement. To claim it as a completely new design, and their own original work would not be an honest claim though

PLEASE DO NOT ANSWER QUESTION IF YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!!!!! I WANT FACTS NOT FICTION....

What you're going to get is people's opinions.

You are clearly convinced that the way that you have created this RIB is valid, even if you've taken some short cuts by using an existing hull (or hulls) as a shortcut. I think that's what you're saying anyway.

Others disagree, and in their view it's not a new design because it directly incorporates other people's work without their permission.

John

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

If a car repair shop took the front of a Mondeo and stuck the back of a Vectra on to it they might call it a "new" design. It might even be unique. It probably wouldn't look much different, and for all I know, it might even be an improvement. To claim it as a completely new design, and their own original work would would not be an honest claim though What you're going to get is people's opinions.



John

have you contradicted yourself?? you say it might be called a new design then you say it cant be called a completely new design??

[King_C]

If there isnt a set definition for a 'splash' then i think from what hes described hes done to it he should be allowed to get away with it altho maybe he should hav explained a little better what he meant by 'own design' rather than letting evryone think he was trying to say hed designed evry bit from scratch!

[LeewayComposite]

Originally Posted by King_C

If there isnt a set definition for a 'splash' then i think from what hes described hes done to it he should be allowed to get away with it altho maybe he should hav explained a little better what he meant by 'own design' rather than letting evryone think he was trying to say hed designed evry bit from scratch!

sorry to all that thought i said,

i design every bit from scratch (did i say this??)

[Louise]

Leeway, perhaps you could clarify just how your hull came into being. What aspects are taken from existing hull(s) and what aspects have you changed/designed yourself?
Edit: And did you build your own plug?

Thanks.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

sorry to all that thought i said,

i design every bit from scratch (did i say this??)

This might have given people that impression....

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

I wanted to combined a lot of my own thoughts and ideas. so here I am just waiting for my personally designed and built rib

If you had said "I want to combine a lot of other peoples' thoughts and ideas," or even "...I wanted to combine mine and other peoples' thoughts and ideas".. we wouldn't have all got so confused..

But what I'm really interested in, from my point of view, is quite how you managed to get the CE sorted so damned quickly. In the thread quoted above you said...

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

the tubes will be tapered for a sleek modern look. im going for a 115 evinrude. she will be ce tested to a cat C.

my intensions are to build a perfect rib for myself but I will have the mould's just in case people are interested in the future (who knows)..

to This...

Originally Posted by LeewayComposite

she is ce approved to a category C. all regulations have been followed. she 100% conforms to BS EN ISO 6185 part 3. and I have owners manual hin number (registered with bmf) builders plates. she has been fully assessed for stability and buoyancy. i have all papper work up together. even the decloration of conformaty.

... in 16 days... From an unfinished prototype to CE plated boat in 16 days... Is that possible? Have I missunderstood this as well... I do that , you know... it's all these years of self abuse....
Do different areas have different time frames? Feckin' Hell I wish I could get things done that fast... different industry..same bureaucratic bullshit... can I say bullshit Mr K? ... but a bloody miracle to get turned around in that time...

[Neville]

come on leeway, put us out of our misery and show us the plug!