No receipts, no proof of ownership

Dom · 26 November 2004, 22:36

I can't believe it! I went to look and a fairly new Avon rib today, 18 month old Avon being sold privately with a Yamaha 90 Hp and a very tidy looking package altogether.I asked, 'do you have an original bill of sale, receipts and any engine servicing history?' 'No' was the short reply, 'can't find them'.
Now admitedly the 'owner' was rebuilding his house and things were in a state of disruption, but that surely wouldn't wash when I tried to explain either to the French customs or the 'old bill' that 'he didn't have any receipts to give me!'
I really don't think he was dodgey but he seemed to think I was unreasonable to ask for and to expect them. He lost a sale, I didn't lose any money, and hopefully we should all learn something from this, or am I being a bit too straight laced here! He said he had someone coming who wouldn't care abput all that!

Louise · 26 November 2004, 22:46

FWIW I think you did the right thing. Peace of mind is a valuable thing! I hope you didn't travel too far to see it! Good luck with your boat hunting.

DepSol · 27 November 2004, 07:56

Personally I think you should have taken note of the engine and hull numbers and checked it out with the old bill.

There are too many boats being stolen these days and if it was hot then at least some owner may have got his pride and joy back.

If it wasnt then no harm done. If however those numbers were missing then it would look dodgy. Did you check to see if they were there?

Dom

Dom · 27 November 2004, 08:40

No I didn't, and I really doubt that he or the boat was dodgey. A large house in a very expensive area and undergoing major building work. I did put it too him that it could look dodgey, but he didn't seem to appreciate that.

My experience of trying to buy a rib has so far indicated that many sellers have kept little in the way of servicing records or anything like that. They seem to expect you to take a lot on trust. I doubt that they'd take a cheque from me and let me take it away. Double standards of trust I suspect!

Rogue Wave · 27 November 2004, 11:31

I don't suppose you want a nice Camel rib. One careful owner and me! I hate the fkkn thing!

Manos · 27 November 2004, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

but that surely wouldn't wash when I tried to explain either to the French customs or the 'old bill' that 'he didn't have any receipts to give me!

Actually if you have an SSR you do not need to explain anything to any European or other customs

You should have taken the serial numbers of engine and boat, checked with SSR in Swansea and with the police and if you found that everything was OK a private bill of sale would have been sufficient.
May be you lost a perfectly good boat

Dom · 27 November 2004, 11:40

Perhaps I did but why should I have to do the proof of purchase, surely any seller who wants to have a smooth sale would have all this to hand! Perhaps we have different expectations.
Dom

pettal · 27 November 2004, 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

No I didn't, and I really doubt that he or the boat was dodgey. A large house in a very expensive area and undergoing major building work.

Expensive house could indicate that he's just very good at stealing stuff!

In my experience you very rarely find a poor, intelligent crook!

Can you also be sure that this bloke was the owner of the house and not just a well dressed foreman with the actual owners away during the rebuild!

Where do I get these ideas from!?!?!?

Rogue Wave · 27 November 2004, 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Perhaps I did but why should I have to do the proof of purchase, surely any seller who wants to have a smooth sale would have all this to hand! Perhaps we have different expectations.
Dom

Most people have differnt expectations to Manos

Rogue Wave · 27 November 2004, 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by pettal

:

In my experience you very rarely find a poor, intelligent crook!

leave politicians out of this!

MeMe · 27 November 2004, 19:24

..........when you buy a brand new boat, you don't get much in the way of info. The past 3 Zodiacs I've owned came (admittedly 2nd hand - I'm only a simple man, don't you know) came with nowt much more than a service log and a strange French manual. Of course the previous owner (in all 3 cases the first owner) mat have had the original purchae receipt but this is not something they like to show/give you. As mentioned by others if you ge the seriel numbers, you can contct brabus uk who hold records of most if not all boat/rib/engine purchases in the u.k. ( I feel sure I'm about to be corrected on that one)!!!

ADS · 27 November 2004, 19:30

Maybe, he didn't want to give you the purchase reciept because it would show how much he paid for it, he may have got a deal on it.
When I bought my boat (second hand) the owner typed out a receipt saying that he was the sole owner and that there were no debts secured against it.

Its not the end of he world -there are loads of boats for sale this time of year.

Manos · 28 November 2004, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Most people have differnt expectations to Manos

OBVIOUSLY not a man of the World Mr Rogue (as expected)

Any way, to just to let you know that in countries such Italy, Fance, Spain (I think) and Greece the inital (1st) buyer of the boat submits all the receipts to the Coastguard (or the ministry repsonssible for issuing boat licences) in order to get the log book and licence from them. Hence no receipts

Same applies for the VHF licence.
Most (if not all) of the people who sell buy boats in Europe have the boat registration document. That is sufficient. You need nothing else.
A sale receipt like that one MeMe described is a standard thing. In Greece you also get a verification from the tax office that the seller was declaring the boat in his/hers tax returns and the boat if free of any liens or encumbersements.

Therefore, when you buy a boat from the UK privately and the boat has an SSR registartion document and you have checked that the serial numbers are not funny, do exist and nothing is stolen which the boat has on it the boat is good and you are safe as a buyer. This checking will take one or two phone calls and about 10 mins max of your time. The results of the search can also be posted to you officially by the authorities

Returning to 'the Worldly' Mr Rogue. I assume that you have a business (this little yard in the Solent), so I suppose you sell the boat or any boats you have as a business (the boats ARE registered in your business' name I suppose), therefore you will be supplying a receipt as a business to you buyer (and not as an individual) indicating the amount paid to you by the buyer for the boat, OR you will be giving the original ORIGINAL receipt to the buyer and all that ............

? Been there and got burned and I have learned!

Rogue Wave · 28 November 2004, 16:53

Manos,

You assume entirely too much about how I make my living! And as you may know when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

Don't sell boats! Also I do my utmost to keep my commercial boating interests well away from this forum so why do you bring it up!

Regarding being worldly wise, I am not going to get into a pissing contest about how much I have travelled and what i have done but suffice it to say I've got enough savvy to know a nobber when I come accross one!

Dom · 28 November 2004, 17:18

Dear Manos,
You seem to be a strongly opinionated person with the unique belief, similar to Tony Blair, that you are the only one to be right! That could be a flawed approach!

You can have all the documentation you like but if what you have is stolen, you do not get good title to it. It really doesn't matter what you register with the SSR, it does not give you good title.

You may buy something in good faith but if it is stolen, and its identity changed to appear bonefide, you don't get good title to it. You may have been an innocent purchaser, and in the opinionated way thay you have expressed yourself, you would also have been a nieive and a sad one.

Take for example the many stolen 4x4's that come into this country from Japan. They are bought by unsuspecting customers in the UK who often later find that they do not have good title to them. It is only the impracticality of the distances involved that stops them being taken back from the purchasers in the UK.

In the late 1990's there were many owner driver lorry drivers who unwittingly bought so called 'reconditioned' engines and gear boxes from a large firm who were involved in a 'steal to order' scam. This was on a global scale, with exports to Australia, New Zealand and South Africa from Southampton. None of those purchasers had good title to those parts. They became the property of the insurance companies who paid out on the claims.

Life is not as simple as you seem to think it is in legal matters, and I'm sure that if it were, then lawyers would be trawlling these pages rather than browsing the Sunseeker or Halberg Rassy owners manuals.

I started this thread because I had the feeling that there were a lot of people out there who appear not to keep documentation of ownership or servicing. Your views seem to be defending that and I am not sure that is really what you are setting out to do. Perhaps you would clarify this point?

I know that there are ways of getting round not having the documentation, and that is fine in the cases wher it has been lost or not kept for genuine reasons. What I was setting out to comment upon was that it shouldn't be something that purchasers have to do.

It is perhaps an opportunity for this forum to promulagate good practice and not to try and justify poor practice.

Now the real difference between me and you in this case is that it is my money, and my decision as to whom I give it to. If I make a mistake it might actually cost me money! You on the other hand are only commenting and not actually risking anything, perhaps other than your reputation, and that is something that I of course could not comment upon!

Imagine please for one moment if I came back to this forum and said, ' I gave someone £13K cash for a .... and later ound it was stolen. I did think it might be a bit dodgey but I remembered what Manos said... . Now I doubt that you would have ut your hand into your pocket to help me out of my and your embarassment. You'd probaly be the first to say what a pratt I was not to have checked... . I bet you would!

Manos, I think when it comes to putting down money and somebody elses to boot, you should consider best practice.
Dom

John Kennett · 29 November 2004, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos

Actually if you have an SSR you do not need to explain anything to any European or other customs

An SSR certificate is neither proof of ownership nor that VAT has been paid. For Dom's purposes it would be worthless.

John

pettal · 29 November 2004, 14:06

As far as I am aware the only fing that counts is an original bill of sale.

Whilst it is not impossible to lose these (I've lost a couple over the years as well as SSR books and registration documents)...and when I finally figure out where that "safe place" I put everything is......I'll be a happy man, but with a load of now useless documentation!!

I digress......

Surely if you are the first person or original owner you can get the company who sold you the boat to print out another copy of the original bill of sale or at least a letter stating (there's a proper word for it....that escapes me at the moment.....used to varify artwork.......it's no bl**dy wonder I keep losing stuff!!) that you are the original owner.

Failing that any service record would also add to this and a quick phone call to the engineer responsible for servicing would at least give a reasonable history of the boat, owners details, owners description and whether he knew if the boat had been stolen.

Whilst this is no gimme and far from perfect it would help formulate an opinion on it's legitimacy.

At no point does the SSR or Boat registration (well not here in the Channel Islands) ask for a bill of sale.

Rogue Wave · 29 November 2004, 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pettal

(there's a proper word for it....that escapes me at the moment.....used to varify artwork.......it's no bl**dy wonder I keep losing stuff!!) that you are the original owner.

I think the word is provee nance

The Jackeens · 29 November 2004, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I think the word is provee nance

Is that the same as provenance Waver?

missus

Dom · 29 November 2004, 22:44

When all is said and done, proof of ownership can onley rest with the person who is claiming it and that will normally be the owener or his or her agent. It is the responsibility of the owner to do this. I know that keen buyers, buying from the heart rather than from the head, will do the owners work for them, but it is the responsibility of the owner to do this. No one should forget that.

Now I guess that the majority of people looking at this site will be home owners. When you instructd your solicitor to initiate proceedigs to buy your new home thwe first that that she or he would have done would be to do a land registyr chek. This is to establish right of title to the property.

In the boating world we don't have an establishe governmnet body that can coney right of title, tha is why we need to see a bonefide 'Bill of Sale' to establish provenance. (Thought I'd throw that one in as others were strting to use it)

Perhaps it is time tha we started a 'best practice' buyers guide!
Dom