Pacing

[whiteminiman]

Now, I realise this is a big no-no as far as the RYA are concerned, but it's a technique that I've actually used quite a lot.

I understand the RYA are saying it's dangerous, yet in this article http://www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9593 it's clear that the RNLI still use it as a technique.

The boats that I have paced, have all been roughly the same size (within a metre), and we've never had any problems.

Can somebody explain to me, exactly what the danger is... in a bit more detail than "the boat will get sucked around/under". I would like to understand exactly what the two boats will be doing and how they effect each other to create problems.

Cheers,
WMM

[Tim M]

My understanding is that it's contact pacing that the RYA have a problem. Non contact is ok............?

[DM]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

I realise this is a big no-no as far as the RYA are concerned

When I did my Instructors course, pacing was part of the syllabus. I think it's a shame the practice is discontinued because it was useful to practice the finer points of boat handling. It's not without risk but for the students, it was an exciting part of the course

With the current emphasis on risk assessment and health and safety procedures, one day soon the level two course will be held in a padded room.

[John Kennett]

I had a quick Google around and came up with these:

From the RYA West Midlsnad web site:

"PACING BETWEEN POWERBOATS BANNED BY HQ

At the West Midlands Regional Instructor Conference Paul Mara (Chief Powerboat Trainer for the RYA) stated that the RYA have recently been made aware of a number of boating accidents where Instructors have been carrying out pacing between powerboats on Level 2 Powerboat Courses, as a post course addition. Not only are these not within the syllabus but are not part of any Powerboat courses within the RYA Powerboat Scheme. All instructors are reminded that the only pacing allowed to be taught as part of the syllabus is between a single powerboat and a dinghy as part of the Safety Boat Course Syllabus.

Carrying out pacing between powerboats at Training Centres is prohibited. For more details on this please contact Paul Mara at RYA HQ."

From the winter 2005 edition of Wavelength (the RYA Instructor magazine) it appears to stem from a single incident in 2001, where pacing was just one of the contributing factors to an incident where two people were injured.

Seems like a total ban on teaching it may possibly be OTT.

John

[samt]

Another article:

http://www.ryatraining.org/NR/rdonly...maccidents.pdf

Although in the one above, I think it would have more sensible if the osprey was the lead boat, and the smaller rigiflex was following.

[eilean mor]

being a realist;
I enjoyed pacing and the opportunity it gave to some of my students in their learning, while under supervision,
however; and it is only imho you have to think what the level of standard required for a RYA powerboat instructor is, and in terms of personal driving standard, and understanding of the risks that could/ can develop doing this, I can see why the RYA did what they did. To let one, or two pbi's control this activity hmmmmmmm; whereas put it into a advanced instructors range of skills to teach/ coach with, then I think that is a very different matter.

and yes I do know there are some fantastic PBI's out there.

[Doug Stormforce]

This activity is more about managing risk.

Yes it was good fun but the reason its not in the syllabus is there are some pretty obvious risks associated with encouraging students to drive high speed craft close to each other.

I think the RYA have quite rightly said the benefit of this activity does not outweigh the risk and accordingly stated it has no place in their courses.

If you feel your students would benefit from this kind of training their is nothing to stop you running pacing sessions outside of your RYA training, I would have thought however if their was ever an accident you would ahve to have a pretty good reason for digressing from the NGB. Excitment and good fun would not cut the mustard in a liability/negligence case.

Let me compare this to other activities we run. On the zap cat experience we run time trials with one boat at a time. Why do you think we dont race them against each other straight boat on boat? Simple really we can include all of the speed, high speed handling, excitment and competition without the risk of two high speed powerboats in close proximity. All the gain without the pain (risk).

What gain does learning pacing have for most advanced students - very little.

For the police and RNLI etc who sometimes have to stop run away boats this is an obvius building block in learning high speed coming alongside.

[Phil]

if you have an instructor who knows his stuff then there is an advantage in that if nothing else it teaches you how power boats will or might behave when close quartered at speed

for most ,they will never have to put it into effect but I for one thought it useful

[Simon Hawkins]

I agree with Dougs comments. What benefit is it to a student to learn pacing. It is very dangerous if carried out incorrectly. I train my helmsman in pacing as it is a safe way of transferring crew between craft in less favourable conditions. This training is usually undertaken with the marine police alongside their launch or Rib.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Phil

if you have an instructor who knows his stuff then there is an advantage in that if nothing else it teaches you how power boats will or might behave when close quartered at speed

for most ,they will never have to put it into effect but I for one thought it useful

Fair enough however we teach our students not to drive close quartered at speed.

[whiteminiman]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Just to clear up some points.

The pacing isn't being taught by a PBI.
This isn't in the UK.
This has nothing to do with any RYA courses.

We feel that the application of contact pacing is appropriate for the tasks that we are completing, considering both the risks and benefits. For the specific reasons that Simon Hawkins has outlined. I do agree that for Joe Public pleasure powerboater, the applications are limited.

Can anyone suggest any answers to my original question?

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

Can somebody explain to me, exactly what the danger is... in a bit more detail than "the boat will get sucked around/under". I would like to understand exactly what the two boats will be doing and how they effect each other to create problems.

Cheers,
WMM

[Cookee]

I have done this in real life many times, and done at the right speed in the appropriate conditions I believe it to be a very safe and stable way of transferring crew from one boat to another.

[eilean mor]

hi, trying to give a little bit to the actual question;

I know there are folk on here who will give a much better explanation than me, but to offer some bits;
and I might have misunderstood your question;

if you want to do this, but dont understand what the danger is, then can I ask - should you be really thinking of doing this; or maybe getting someone who does understand the risks involved to do it?? -

I do like the fact that you have looked into it though prior to doing it, - good

I've just re read your original post, and see that you are happy doing this anyway?, so is it the science geek bit that you want to understand, or just that you'd never thought through all the risks, etc, (different drivers, crew, boats, weather, engine response, etc etc etc), and i dont mean that in a bad way, just trying to get a better idea of what you want.

[DJL]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

Can somebody explain to me, exactly what the danger is... in a bit more detail than "the boat will get sucked around/under". I would like to understand exactly what the two boats will be doing and how they effect each other to create problems.

The dangers vary in degree with the types of vessels begin used.

The above quote I believe refers to the stern wave. If you miss judge your entry or exit between the bow and stern waves you'll end up riding over the stern wave and being sucked into the trough at the back of the boat. If you're dealing with a large powerboat like a Severn, the stern wave and trough are significant and could flip the boat.

Although the stern wave is less of an issue with two ribs, you encounter other problems such as one boat riding over the top of the other, especially when it's lumpy.

[DM]

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

It is very dangerous if carried out incorrectly

You could apply that statement to any boating activity.

Originally Posted by Simon Hawkins

What benefit is it to a student to learn pacing.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

What gain does learning pacing have for most advanced students - very little

Now, lets see. Keeping correct distance from a leading craft, dangers of driving in a wash, correct angles and technique for powering through another boats wash, dangers of getting out of shape in another boats wash,
steering a dead straight line, use of throttle and trim for matching speed exactly whilst steering aforesaid straight line. For me, it's good for honing boat handling skills and will certainly be of use to those entering the commercial rib driving world.

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

this is an obvious building block in learning high speed coming alongside.

It doesn't have to be done at high speed, it doesn't have to be done in a choppy sea and there's no need for full contact.

Anyway, the RYA say we can't teach it within the syllabus so thats that otherwise I would be teaching it.

[whiteminiman]

Originally Posted by eilean mor

I've just re read your original post, and see that you are happy doing this anyway?, so is it the science geek bit that you want to understand, or just that you'd never thought through all the risks, etc, (different drivers, crew, boats, weather, engine response, etc etc etc), and i dont mean that in a bad way, just trying to get a better idea of what you want.

I'm aware of the risks of doing it... I'm trying to understand why those risks exist. So yes, the "science geek" bit

Coming alongside something like a Severn, I can see the issues of the stern trough there. We're specifically doing it in SIBS or RIBS of similar sizes. Our biggest RIB is 9.5m and our smallest SIB is 3.4m - with another 7 boats in between.

Thanks for all the contributions.

WMM

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by whiteminiman

in a bit more detail than "the boat will get sucked around/under". I would like to understand exactly what the two boats will be doing and how they effect each other to create problems.

I've no experience of pacing but I guess the forces will be created by the accelerated water between the boats having a lower pressure. When a fluid is accelerated, the pressure within it drops. This is the force which also makes your propeller function and makes the fuel issue into a carburettor.
The two boats will be displacing water and the water around them has to accelerate to enable it to get to the back of the boat to fill the hole where the boat would have been had the water not got to the back quick enough. So, when two boats close on each other, the water between them is squeezed and must accelerate faster than the water on the outside of the boats. This will cause a reduction in pressure between the boats so the water on the outside of the boats will push them together. I'm guessing that if the boats are similar and the water conditions are good then the forces will be reasonably balanced but if there are waves and the boats are rocking and rolling I would imagine it would be fairly easy for the side of one boat to ride up the side of the other. With a rib to rib it's fairly easy to imagine one tube on top of another and an unstable situation arising.

With dissimilar boats, it would be difficult to predict the behaviour except with a heavy boat and a light rib in contact you can guess which one is going to have most difficulty.

There must be other interfering forces from the under water bow wave but I've nae idea how they would interact.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

If you feel your students would benefit from this kind of training their is nothing to stop you running pacing sessions outside of your RYA training

That's not what is says in the RYA web site that I quoted. The wording is "Carrying out pacing between powerboats at Training Centres is prohibited", not just that you shouldn't do it as part of an RYA course.

What is the situation generally with RYA schools offering off-syllabus training?

John

[havener]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

What is the situation generally with RYA schools offering off-syllabus training?

John

Interesting point. A few people I work with, including many of the UK fire services, have become centres to enable them to certify in house - then they certainly go and do things with their boats the RYA might not like.

Ultimately, the RYA simply accredit a centre to deliver certain courses correctly in a safe manner. They don't own the centres, or the boats, or employ the staff, so I'd have thought that telling centres they couldn't do other things would amount to restriction of trade.

But then again I might be wrong...

As to pacing, I think WMM sums it up perfectly in terms of what they need to do with it. Within the limited confines of a teaching course to leisure boaters I'd say there's better things to spend the time on, but in a specific environment pacing is a very useful skill, and like all things if done properly carries very little risk.

[Downhilldai]

Originally Posted by davidmanning

When I did my Instructors course, pacing was part of the syllabus.......

Yes, but back then, the pace was set by a chap sitting at the back banging a drum