PVC or Hypallon??

Manos · 03 July 2004, 14:50

Well I know this subject has been discussed many times and many have expressed their opinion without any proper evidence.

I have read all the theories regading advantages/disadvantages of both materials but they all say that in many ways both are similar. Well they are NOT!

Now I have the evidence! The attached photos are from a boat made out of PVC (made in Germany or in the 3rd World only the manufatcurer knows). This boat is BRAND NEW and has not been in the water yet!

Look what has happened to it! Will the manufacturer HONOR his gurantee?? and who is going to repair this unacceptable ware?

Richard B · 03 July 2004, 15:32

Manos, what exactly does the photograph show - bubbling up of the surface? Poor seam sewing which has "rucked up" the top overlap?

chrisallse · 03 July 2004, 16:05

I wiuld have said that this was more to do with the person who made it rather than the fabric. Is this one of your new boats Manos?

Manos · 03 July 2004, 17:06

Yes Chris is a band new boat. And this is what we also discovred on another one.

Richard the surface has minor bubbles but I expected that since my 700 has boubles on a double coat that they put to write the name of the boat on. The bubles on the 640s is not as bad as on the 700. If you want photos will show you. The 640s because of a mess up they have double PVC on the top side of the boat as I had ordered blue and got greyish. The photos show a tare on the fabrick between the railling and the bottom. Is like a clear cut or tear due to something, which I don't know what

It seems that the fabric has tared off in these areas on the 640s. Possibly PVC of inferior quality? I cannot explain it otherwise.

May be now I will hear the excuse that these are ventilation holes

and also that I don't know what I'm talking about

jwalker · 04 July 2004, 01:45

Isn't that just the edge of the folded over fabric? It looks to have been thermo welded and caught in the weld on the right of the picture and runs out of the weld towards the left.

Nice thumb.

Manos · 04 July 2004, 05:41

I haven't got clue JW.
Probably you are correct for the second set of photos as they have just started to use cold welding (not very successfully as it seems from the photos if what you say correct). However, if you look closely on the boat it looks like there is a hole again there. A big cut.
In the first set this little hole is deffinately a cut on the PVC.
Whatever these holes the point that I'm tryin to make is that if these are holes the PVC is not any agood, and that they shouldn't have been there in the first place. The manufacturer should have made sure of that.
This is a brand new boat and one should expect to get it without any small or big problems.
Do you agree?

PS Thanks for the thump it was painfull when it happened

PPS And as I was unwrapping the damaged boat see what I discovered !!

This looks like a cut to me.

Manos · 06 July 2004, 07:16

So far no reply form FALCON. Sould I be woriied since they also have some of our money as a deposit for some other boats that we have now cancelled?

Bilge Rat · 06 July 2004, 07:55

My God i never thought i'd see the day....Manos slagging down a Falcon boat.

Manos · 06 July 2004, 08:10

I'm not Mr Rat. These two are not up to spec in any shape or form. The hulls are great and they go well, but the final finish leaves a lot to be desired

I can't immagine what is wrong with these guys. They were 100% and more before now all seems to have gone down hill

batfalcon · 06 July 2004, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manos

... I have read all the theories regading advantages/disadvantages of both materials but they all say that in many ways both are similar. Well they are NOT!

Now I have the evidence! ...

The question here has 2 themes for discussion/exploration.
1. What fabric is best for the rib use, between PVC and HYPALON.
2. What went wrong with the "FALCON BOATS" and delivered boats with defects.

As far as the first issue, I am sure that none of us can be 100 % sure that these defects wouldn't exist if the tubes were made of hypalon.

As for the second issue, I can only suppose that they overlook quality due to delivery delay. They weren't as careful as they should be cause time was pressing.
Sure it wasn't your fault Manos. You payed for brand new defectless boats.
I say that since they have your deposit for the rest of the boats, you should ASK them to honor their warranty.

Estimate the damage that it's been made and ASK for refund.
Personal contact IS NOT advicable at this moment.
In my opinion a lawyer shall represent your rights.

Bilge Rat · 06 July 2004, 10:13

You guys need to stand back a bit here and look at the bigger issues at hand, there are lots of manufacturers making RIB collars out of PVC and all other types of materials thermo welded and glued and they dont seem to be having the constant build problems that falcon and the newly rebranded xrib have !!

So ask yourself a few fundermental questions, like why cant they make a quality boat, and why cant they QC there own workmanship and is the product fit for purpose, and most importantly if you really buy a boat thats cheap what are you really getting.

IMHO this looks like a Mr Beeney boat

swginn · 06 July 2004, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge Rat

they dont seem to be having the constant build problems that falcon and the newly rebranded xrib have !!

I presume you mean Rib-X, Bilge. Can't have people slagging my new boat now!! (XS-Rib formerly known as XRib)

I'm guessing that QC was overlooked as Falcon are now producing a lot more boats than they were when you bought "No Limit Too" and are probably rushing the builds to make delivery on time. This is unacceptable and I agree 100% with The Bat on your course of action. Why should you be out of pocket for their mistakes, not to mind whatever chartering fees you've lost due to delay!! Hope you can resolve the issue promptly!!

A local in baltimore has just had a Falcon 640 shipped by container. Will have a look to see how his is!

As regards the PVC seams, haven't Falcon just started introducing thermowelding? Maybe they're just not very good at it yet!!

Daniel TD5 · 06 July 2004, 10:33

my vailant is made using

Using this process which combines fusion with calendering at high pressures, the different parts of the tubes are assembled with a system of double internal/external tapes providing welds stronger than the material itself. As no type of glue or solvent is used which can affect the nature of the material, the welds remain totally sound, without the annoying yellow stains due to excess glue when the craft is cold glued.

and the tube are made of

This material, designed specifically for inflatable craft of recreational usage, is manufactured by MEHLER AG, a branch of the KAP Beteiligungs – AG group from Germany, with more than 40 years experience in the manufacture of reinforced materials of high technical performance.

The material is composed of a base fabric of HIGH TENACITY TREVIRA, internally and externally coated with two coats of vinyl and with an outer coat of acrylic finish which reinforces the resistance to environmental agents, ageing and dirt, making cleaning easier.

manos i dont think any of your problem are due to what your boat is made of just who made it my seat had a small tear after 5 days out it was replace from vailant in one week after i ask for the dealer to sort it out

get what you pay for
dan

swginn · 06 July 2004, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel TD5

my vailant is made using

Using this process which combines fusion with calendering at high pressures, the different parts of the tubes are assembled with a system of double internal/external tapes providing welds stronger than the material itself. As no type of glue or solvent is used which can affect the nature of the
material, the welds remain totally sound, without the annoying yellow stains due to excess glue when the craft is cold glued.

This is thermowelding!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel TD5

and the tube are made of...

....The material is composed of a base fabric of HIGH TENACITY TREVIRA, internally and externally coated with two coats of vinyl and with an outer coat of acrylic finish which reinforces the resistance to environmental agents, ageing and dirt, making cleaning easier.

Otherwise known as PVC!!

The Valiant website is full of technical terms about what they use and how they use it but when you ring them and ask them to explain (I did when I used own one!!) its quite simple actually. Standard boats are thermowelded PVC just like Manos' new Falcons

Valiant also make a professional series using what they refer to as

Quote:

AKRON TPE of High Resistance to Abrasion has been developed to be used in professional, army, and rescue craft, being accepted for this purpose by the most prestigious organizations of rescue and safety at sea,such as the US COAST GUARD and British RNLI, complying with the MIL B-53067 Regulations of the US Department of Defense and having the RINA CCE36599/1 certification for use in the manufacture of rescue craft.

The main characteristics of the material can be summarized as an extremely high resistance to abrasion, five times greater than that of Neoprene/Hypalon, together with a very high resistance to pollution, to the action of U.V. rays and to impact in accordance to the puncture test. Its elastomer polymer nature permits the successful combination of the traditional properties of rubber, flexibility, elasticity and watertightness, with the advantages of thermoplastics manufacture, permitting the industrialization of its manufacturing process, thus compensating the high cost per metre of material.

This is simply Polyurethane (PU)

Just thought I'd clear up the all the jargon!!

Manos · 06 July 2004, 11:09

Bat I agree 100% with you. I am looking for a solicitor in SA to see what we can do about this mess. This is becuse Mr FALCON has completely ignored all the emails and communications I have sent to him appart from the inital one with all the excuses about why the boat got damaged in the container. Regarding all the defects I/ you also found on the boat I have heard nothing so far. Neither I heard anything regarding the deposit of the money they hold for our next order that we have now cancelled.

Swginn IMHO a professional buiilders if they don't know how to weld PVC (I saw FALCON guys the machine while I was in SA and the people who operated din't fill me with confidence I admit) they stick to what they know best or they do not produce.

TD5 MEHLER is German name as you say. This is what FALCON (Apparently - with capital A) use on their boats. I doubt though somehow. Do you have the telephone number of MEHLER or any contact details just to ask them if FALCON are actually using their product or if they are fibbing and are using a 2nd rate material saying that is MEHLER? MEHLER is a very serious German company and if I tell them what happened on the PVC (if it's theirs) I'm sure they will reply to me and will not ignor me as Mr FALCON did.

Daniel TD5 · 06 July 2004, 11:14

swginn

as you say lots of fancy terms but the end result looks very good

and none of the finish problems of other craft

the seams are very neat and its beem commented our well its finish off

its all down to price

dan

swginn · 06 July 2004, 11:23

Oh don't get me wrong Daniel I wasn't making a stab at Valiant boats just explaining all the techno-crap!!

I had the V490 Polyurethane version (Akron TPE), the seams were perfect and the PU tubes didn't show one sign of wear or seam trouble!! Thats why I've got PU tubes on my new boat as well!!

Valiant have been thermowelding tubes for years and it shows with their flawless seams, I think Falcon are still trying to get it right and unfortunately Manos' boats have suffered as a result.

Daniel TD5 · 06 July 2004, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by swginn

Oh don't get me wrong Daniel I wasn't making a stab at Valiant boats just explaining all the techno-crap!!

I had the V490 Polyurethane version (Akron TPE), the seams were perfect and the PU tubes didn't show one sign of wear or seam trouble!! Thats why I've got PU tubes on my new boat as well!!

Valiant have been thermowelding tubes for years and it shows with their flawless seams, I think Falcon are still trying to get it right and unfortunately Manos' boats have suffered as a result.

i know you are not having a go at vailant its just only ten members of the forums own vailant and no one seems to look at them as a cheaper boat to most other makes and my boat cost less than a falcon/ xrib in the uk by about
£1000.00

dan

Bilge Rat · 06 July 2004, 12:00

swginn.... my appologies, i was as you rightly pointed out talking about the rebranded falcons not XS ribs...infact i looked into XS a while back and thought they were very good value for money and a rib to keep an eye on for the future.

Of course the test of time will tell us how good these fairly new bonding techniques hold up.

swginn · 06 July 2004, 12:12

Bilge,

Thermowelding is not new!! Andy/Thorper's Tornado (and most other Tornados since about 4 yrs ago) has thermowelded PU tubes, so I suppose you could ask him if he has had any trouble!! A buddy of mine has one with thermowelded PU tubes for nearly three years now with no troubles!