Question to Divers - Page 2

Jackwabbit · 23 September 2004, 09:48

I would agree whole heartily with Andy’s comments.
As far as our clubs insurance is concerned all we needed was for all people driving the boat to hold a RYA powerboat 1 & 2 certificate.
BUT as far as our clubs concerned all people driving the boat must also undergo further training to the satisfaction of the clubs diving officer.
You can’t be too careful with people in the water close to boats.

davep · 23 September 2004, 09:59

I'm with Andy all the way! Also make sure the divers have DSMB's and know how to use them.

Rene · 23 September 2004, 10:02

Hi

A good course for learning to use O2 in a dive situation is the PADI EFR course, don't get me started on which is best, but this course is also meant for non divers.

For getting divers in and out of the boat.
Out: Put all the scuba gear on (specialy for new divers), do a body check in the boat (not easy in a small boat, the boat cox might be needed to do this "Learn how to, read your sons OWD book"). Put a lot of air in your BCD and roll backwards, gravity will do the rest. Only have one divers to this at a time, tell the other divers to hold on.

In: have the divers don the weight belt first (why, because is they start with the bcd they will sink), the boat cox will have to take it and put it in the boat, tell the diver when you have a hold of the belt. Then take the bcd off, and again the boat cox should pull this into the boat (be prepared to get wet). Don't take the fins off. make a little kick off and pull yourself into the boat.

All this is one diver at a time.

About getting divers in an emergency into the boat. The key thing is to know the equipment they are using, and how the open it. Tell the divers to show you, before they jump into the water, it's easy, but even easyer if you have tried it at home i your living room, ask your son to show you.

If your son is taking the PADI course at a PADI dive center, they most likely have a divermaster in thet center ass well, whice you can ask to go out with them on your rib, for the fisrt 2 dives. He/she should also be able to show you the do and don't off driving a dive rib.

Go for it, it's a lot off fun, and it really is the best way to dive (from a rib)

Rene
PADI IDCS

Rupert Bear · 23 September 2004, 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackwabbit

I would agree whole heartily with Andy’s comments.
As far as our clubs insurance is concerned all we needed was for all people driving the boat to hold a RYA powerboat 1 & 2 certificate.
BUT as far as our clubs concerned all people driving the boat must also undergo further training to the satisfaction of the clubs diving officer.
You can’t be too careful with people in the water close to boats.

I have heard this in many clubs and it is generally not true. Most club insurance doesn't require any qualification to drive the club boat but rules are generally put in place by the branch themselves. The usual one and the one I find funny is that everyone must be a "qualified" boathandler having completed BSAC boathandler. This is not a qualification but a familiarisation with boats, not that most folk believe that when you tell them!
I have to agree that the best folk to take out divers are divers themselves but I can think of some exceptions locally.

The whole question about putting divers overboard and what qualifications/experience is needed comes down to "it depends" on what and where you are going.
the best way to find out how to do it is to go out with someone who does and ask questions till you are happy and see how they do it.

Jackwabbit · 23 September 2004, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Bear

I have heard this in many clubs and it is generally not true. Most club insurance doesn't require any qualification to drive the club boat but rules are generally put in place by the branch themselves. The usual one and the one I find funny is that everyone must be a "qualified" boathandler having completed BSAC boathandler. This is not a qualification but a familiarisation with boats, not that most folk believe that when you tell them!

This is not the case within our club for a RIB, although it was the case with inflatables.
We are totally independent & not affiliated to any other organisation (probably one of the last few remaining independent clubs in the country now) and as such getting insurance is starting to get more difficult by the year & this was one stipulation they insisted on.
Everyone assumes to be a diver you have to belong to BSAC or PADI, this is not true there are other diving organisations such as SSAC (Scottish Sub-Aqua club) SAA (Sub Aqua Association) CMAS (Confederation Mondiale Des Activites Subaquatiques) wow that was a mouth full ! To name but a few. The insurance companies are now pulling out of the independent market stating well you can always get insurance through BSAC of PADI.
Why are we still independent ?
Well it’s a long story dating back to 1967 when our club was first formed. A new swimming pool was opening in Swanley; a few BSAC members from the Maidstone branch approached BSAC with a view of starting a new BSAC club in Swanley. The reply from BSAC at that time was “we don’t need another club in the area we already have clubs at Maidstone & Croydon” not to be put off by their reply the club was formed in 1967 as an independent club, using methods & techniques taught by BSAC after all our founder members were instructors & diving officers etc from other BSAC clubs.
After a few years BSAC realised there was a need for a club Swanley, so they approached the club with a view of becoming a BSAC club. It was put to the club members that we could now become part of BSAC but it was going to cost them half as much again on their membership fees. This was rejected by all the members.
A few years later we were approached by SAA, this again was put to the members BUT this time because it wasn’t going to cost much we joined the SAA.
After a number of years with the SAA, membership costs started to creep up to the point where a third of our membership costs was going to SAA. It was decided to go independent again to cut the cost of membership & allow us to get new equipment without costing members more.
I personally have been through PADI open water training & BSAC training, they are all good in their own way & what a lot of people seem to forget is basic training is just that BASIC, you never stop learning.
We enjoy our independence & hope to stay that way, if legislation & insurance allow us. We have member trained by nearly all the different organisations, and all those with any sense would agree you can never get enough training or stop learning.

Sorry for going on a bit, I know this is a RIB forum but there does seem to be a lot of divers looking in from time to time.

Andy · 23 September 2004, 12:30

I agree the BSAC Diver Coxen Cert does not teach you to manage a dive site, however BSAC also state that the dive site requires a dive marshall, and to manage a boat dive they must be experienced and qualifed for that type of dive. In lots of cases the Dive Marshall and the Cox are the same person which is fine. If people stick to this rule of needed these 2 types of skill on a dive boat, be it 1 or 2 people, but the skills are there, then you are being responsible to the divers you have onboard.

In a BSAC Club, or PADI School the institution should keep you safe, however when individuas with little to no diving experience start taking their mates/family diving because they have a boat and can .... we start to see incidents.

For as long as I can remember the category for boat diving, in the BSAC incident report has been the one of the largest year after year. And this is with people that are supposed to know when then are doing. Take a look at the attached image. Also if people want more detail then read this for a list of Boating/Surface related incidents reported to BSAC last year.

http://www.bsac.org/techserv/increp03/boating03.htm

Lot of these are due to boats not being fit to be a diving platform & poor boat handling. Many have nothing to do with the boat and cox, however do hightlight the need for capable surface support and site management.

Sorry to sit on my soap box on this one, however after diving for over 22years, I have seen a lot. In short go and seek support from your local dive Club for advice and support before attempting to deploy divers from your boat. They will help you do the right thing.

Rupert Bear · 23 September 2004, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackwabbit

We are totally independent & not affiliated to any other organisation (probably one of the last few remaining independent clubs in the country now) and as such getting insurance is starting to get more difficult by the year & this was one stipulation they insisted on.

I know of at least one other in Fort William who I sometimes take members out on my RIB from. I am also PADI, SSAC, BSAC,TDI ,IANTD, DAN, and RYA trained. Always believed that training was best taken wherever it was the highest quality rather than from one organisation.
Now we are independent ourselves but not a club, just us.

Andy, there is one proviso to the BSAc figures that you have to consider. They only cover reported incidents, either official ones or reports within BSAC itself. You know as well as I do that the majority of incidents go unreported even within a branch never mind to HQ. The incident numbers and to some extent the balance of them will be different to reality. Boat diving always figured largely because compared to shore diving incidents are generally more serious and harder to hide (ie the DO is on board or somebody who will tell him!)

Andy · 23 September 2004, 13:08

I agree .. these reports are not the full picture. However they are a mesurement and done year after year under the same terms and so give a good indication of trends.

I think this is all about being wise. Most people on this forum would not buy a RIB with no experience then cross the channel, I would hope!!! They would progress ... over time. Same goes with being a dive cox, small steps first. Learn the basics, go to a sheltered, non tidal site etc .. maybe with another boat. It's all about progression.

Jackwabbit · 23 September 2004, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Bear

Now we are independent ourselves but not a club, just us.

OK
So !!!
We are probably the only independent club left in the UK
Unless someone knows different

Rupert Bear · 23 September 2004, 15:21

Fort William are independent as stated above.

Jackwabbit · 23 September 2004, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rupert Bear

Fort William are independent as stated above.

Sorry a little misunderstanding on my part

so you are independent but not a club & Fort William is a club
oh well that makes two of us then I think

unless someone knows different.

Rupert Bear · 23 September 2004, 15:32

Yeah, FW are an independent club but we are in Oban as independent divers although some of the FW group come on trips on our boat.
I used to be BSAC (and SSAC before that) but the local club is pretty poor so didn't join when I moved here 3 years ago.

Andy Beach · 23 September 2004, 21:14

Make sure your anchor is NOT permanently fixed to your boat. Instead put a large float on the end of the anchor line (I use an empty 5 litre plastic bottle).

If the divers cannot return to the boat, or get into difficulty away from the boat, you may have to go get them. Instead of messing around hauling up the anchor while they float away into the distance, you can leave the anchor where it is and come back for it AFTER recovering the divers.

I'm sure more than a few anchors have been lost by not having a floaty bit on the end (although it makes for a good 'search and recovery' exercise for your next dive!)

Andy Beach

Rupert Bear · 23 September 2004, 23:11

I personally never anchor the boat when diving, if diving a shot then even if the boat is clipped on there is a large 50lt bouy at the top and the boat can be freed just by unclipping the painter.
Diving from an anchored boat where the anchor can't be dumped by just unclipping is not recommended in case a diver surfaces in difficulties and seconds count getting there.

ashbypower · 24 September 2004, 09:06

We Never anchor the Boat. It remains with engine running as RB says in case of the emergency when second count. Always leave the shot with a highly visible "Blob" as a "Reference" point when wreck diving and Divers always used FSMB's for drift diving.

Brian

Simon B · 24 September 2004, 11:07

We used to anchor by the painter if we wanted to stay on station waiting for divers to surface, the disadvantage of this is the painter is "outboard" of the boat. You end up having to do some acorbatics to reach it which also wastes valuable time.

Leaving the painter tied to/through a life line or handle so as to be handy can lead to these items being pulled off so isnt a good idea.

A better working solution was to have a leader 2-3 metres of line (different colour or identified somehow tied to the internal D ring (usually in anchor locker if your RIB has one) with a clip of suitable load spliced on. This can then be easily recovered without having to hang off the bow.

Scary Des · 24 September 2004, 11:21

I think as a general concept the ability to quickly drop the anchor and line is a good thing.
My anchor is attached to a cleat on the foredeck and lead overboard via an opening fairlead. We also keep a fender in the bow so if we have to move in a hurry the line comes of the cleat and onto the fender and over it goes. Incidentally, I have two anchors so don’t feel venerable leaving one behind. Des