Radar, AIS, Radar Reflectors - overkill or sensible safety options?

[JohnnyMW]

Thinking about some longer trips in 2017 e.g Ireland, IOM, Scillies from Caernarfon and have been considering from a safety perspective what I should be considering....? There have been numerous threads on radar, AIS, echomax (which I already have) for ribs but nothing definitive on the value/order of preference. Just wondering what people's thoughts were on the virtues and value of each or all in any combination?

I look forward to the discussion.

[Last Tango]

Have a read......
Radar emmissions and Health and Safety

I've seen a few radar installations on ribs that, in respect of safety, would be better not there at all.

[Pikey Dave]

Echomax, for the relative cost, silly not to. That said, you would be able to shift out of the way of most vessels likely to run you down.
AIS, (transponder) I rate it very highly, if not for the curiosity value of being able to see the details of the big ships, where they've been, where they're going. CPA is handy when fishing.
Radar, had it on a previous boat, liked it, but can live without it. Handy for CPA, MARPA.
I would put DSC VHF & a PLB above all of the above.


Lions led by donkeys

[mick]

As Dave says 👍 i have AIS which I think is great also echomax + Epirb and PLBs
I find the AIS very handy if I'm out with Dave who has the same as it means if we get split we still have eyes on each other

[mick]

Originally Posted by mick

As Dave says 👍 i have AIS which I think is great also echomax + Epirb and PLBs
I find the AIS very handy if I'm out with Dave who has the same as it means if we get split we still have eyes on each other

And 2 good vhf radios

[tony t]

Originally Posted by mick

I find the AIS very handy if I'm out with Dave who has the same as it means if we get split we still have eyes on each other

Must be a Yorkshire thing

[tony t]

Originally Posted by JohnnyMW

Thinking about some longer trips in 2017 e.g Ireland, IOM, Scillies from Caernarfon and have been considering from a safety perspective what I should be considering....? There have been numerous threads on radar, AIS, echomax (which I already have) for ribs but nothing definitive on the value/order of preference. Just wondering what people's thoughts were on the virtues and value of each or all in any combination?

I look forward to the discussion.

Don't think you will make the sillies from Caernarfon, but if your considering the IOM or Ireland give us a shout that's our home base and always up for another trip to either

[dnv]

Originally Posted by JohnnyMW

Thinking about some longer trips in 2017 e.g Ireland, IOM, Scillies from Caernarfon and have been considering from a safety perspective what I should be considering....? There have been numerous threads on radar, AIS, echomax (which I already have) for ribs but nothing definitive on the value/order of preference. Just wondering what people's thoughts were on the virtues and value of each or all in any combination?

I look forward to the discussion.

I was on my usual way from Cuxhaven to Heligoland recently. Left the coast in good visibility. After 1/3 of the distance, still in the mouth of river Elbe, all of a sudden fog with visibility of less than 100 ft. I was more than happy to ride a rib with broadband radar and both AIS receiver and chart plotter. Plus fixed and hh VHF, allowing me to monitor 16 and VTS simultaneously. And magnetic compass and echo sounder.
The remaining 26 nm all in dense fog with even less visibility. In that area with dense traffic, shoals and current a tuff call w/o RADAR. Compass and echo sounder help you to find your way, but not to avoid the 18 kTEU vessel sailing at 22 kn.
If you can afford RADAR, go for it.

[sailrib]

Johnny,

What size rib do you have?

DSC VHF, a good radar reflector, chart plotter, handheld VHF (back up), depth sounder, flares, first aid kit are all good to have.

AIS is very nice to have but perhaps a bit gucci for a small rib, even for a 35' boat unless dealing with constant busy shipping areas or your planning extreme journeys or you just enjoy the sheer entertainment regardless of price.

PLB is also nice to have but should remember they are only to be considered for serious risk/danger/grave risk of life issues. They don't require monthly fee's.

Probably best to get a "Satellite Messenger Device", they are handheld transmitting devices with a gps allowing you to communicate (via satellite) short text messages and/or your location coordinates with friends or family, you can report your trip’s status in simple messages or, in an emergency, send calls for help. The "DeLorme inReach SE" gets good reviews. It can also be used as your back up gps if your chart plotter/electrical goes down.

I totally agree with Last Tango's comment above about radar. As grand as they can be, they are simply not the healthiest devices to have on most ribs. They are serious microwaves and also require lots of power and not the most practical on a rib on the go.

It's easy to go overkill with all the safety gizmo's till your rib can barely float and unfortunately at the same time some prats go out without even a life jacket.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by sailrib

PLB is also nice to have but should remember they are only to be considered for serious risk/danger/grave risk of life issues. They don't require monthly fee's.



Probably best to get a "Satellite Messenger Device", they are handheld transmitting devices with a gps allowing you to communicate (via satellite) short text messages and/or your location coordinates with friends or family, you can report your trip’s status in simple messages or, in an emergency, send calls for help. The "DeLorme inReach SE" gets good reviews. It can also be used as your back up gps if your chart plotter/electrical goes down.



I totally agree with Last Tango's comment above about radar. As grand as they can be, they are simply not the healthiest devices to have on most ribs. They are serious microwaves and also require lots of power and not the most practical on a rib on the go.

.

Odd that you recommend a satellite messenger over a PLB. If you have VHF, mobile phone then you have "run of the mill" comms covered. A PLB is indeed a "sh1t or bust" device, but surely that's what you need? If it's all going pear shaped I want to send for the cavalry, not start texting a third party & relying on them to send help.

Re radar. Indeed, old tech radar could fry your head, assuming you were close enough, in the transmission plane, had it running continuously. Modern 3&4 G broadband radar is relatively safe.


Lions led by donkeys

[Last Tango]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Re radar. Indeed, old tech radar could fry your head, assuming you were close enough, in the transmission plane, had it running continuously. Modern 3&4 G broadband radar is relatively safe.

You must have seen the installs that have the ray-dome mounted at eye-level less than a meter from standing crew. It might be "relatively" safe but it contravenes the manufacturers instructions and it contravenes common sense.

[sailrib]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Odd that you recommend a satellite messenger over a PLB. If you have VHF, mobile phone then you have "run of the mill" comms covered. A PLB is indeed a "sh1t or bust" device, but surely that's what you need? If it's all going pear shaped I want to send for the cavalry, not start texting a third party & relying on them to send help.

Re radar. Indeed, old tech radar could fry your head, assuming you were close enough, in the transmission plane, had it running continuously. Modern 3&4 G broadband radar is relatively safe.


Lions led by donkeys

Pikey,

Sorry, I left out a sentence I meant to include that when your out of general comms range; beyond vhf & cell services. We use to use a sat phone for those times but a cheaper, smaller and somewhat better method now is the Satellite Messenger Device (SMD). There's nothing wrong with PLB's but it cannot send an “Okay” message, and it cannot receive messages; it also does not confirm receipt of the emergency signal.

I will say a SMD is excellent with the addition to having a PLB (5 watt).

SMD can be used just like a PLB although not through COSPAS-SARSAT instead through 112 in Europe, it's just gives you more options with more levels of communication, (and receiving) and sending out tracking positions and more detailed info without blindly calling for the calvary when not really needed but there is a relatively small fee for that you can pay just for one month or a yearly subscription. Paying for that one month on the big adventures makes sense, just have to remember to pay it prior to untying the docklines.


In regards to Radar, how many ribs have a tower directly above passengers & helm to mount a radar? While true that todays radars are much better than their older sisters (can be said for most things) most A frames are at head height and aft putting passengers & helm area directly and squarely in the forward looking 20 degree peak power zone that is something that every manufacturer strongly does not recommend.

If there is already a tower above the helm, then that would be good for radar.

I will lastly say sadly it surprises me how many ribs go out on the ocean without fresh flares or even a first aid kit.

[GuyC]

I would say the majority of things that are going to spoil your day in a RIB involve floating debris, fishing buoys and other small vessels that don't appear on radar, AIS or other devices.

Does having loads of technology on board help or hinder your safety in the environment RIB's tend to operate in?

It's no criticism of anyone, just an alternative view.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by sailrib

Pikey,

Sorry, I left out a sentence I meant to include that when your out of general comms range; beyond vhf & cell services. We use to use a sat phone for those times but a cheaper, smaller and somewhat better method now is the Satellite Messenger Device (SMD). There's nothing wrong with PLB's but it cannot send an “Okay” message, and it cannot receive messages; it also does not confirm receipt of the emergency signal.

I will say a SMD is excellent with the addition to having a PLB (5 watt).

SMD can be used just like a PLB although not through COSPAS-SARSAT instead through 112 in Europe, it's just gives you more options with more levels of communication, (and receiving) and sending out tracking positions and more detailed info without blindly calling for the calvary when not really needed but there is a relatively small fee for that you can pay just for one month or a yearly subscription. Paying for that one month on the big adventures makes sense, just have to remember to pay it prior to untying the docklines.


In regards to Radar, how many ribs have a tower directly above passengers & helm to mount a radar? While true that todays radars are much better than their older sisters (can be said for most things) most A frames are at head height and aft putting passengers & helm area directly and squarely in the forward looking 20 degree peak power zone that is something that every manufacturer strongly does not recommend.

If there is already a tower above the helm, then that would be good for radar.

I will lastly say sadly it surprises me how many ribs go out on the ocean without fresh flares or even a first aid kit.

You forgot the inverse square rule😏


Lions led by donkeys

[sailrib]

Originally Posted by GuyC

I would say the majority of things that are going to spoil your day in a RIB involve floating debris, fishing buoys and other small vessels that don't appear on radar, AIS or other devices.

Does having loads of technology on board help or hinder your safety in the environment RIB's tend to operate in?

It's no criticism of anyone, just an alternative view.

Zero argument there. 99.5% of days being badly spoiled are by exactly what you described.

[willk]

Maybe worth mentioning to the detractors of AIS that many "points of local interest" such as navigation buoys, lighthouses and Coast Guard stations are now equipped with AIS transponders...

An extra layer in our defences against the Big Sleep

[JohnnyMW]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. I'm pleased that I've already got a Chartplotter (iPhone, iPad with Navionics app), 2 x DSC VHF's, Echomax , PLB, flares etc. so pretty well covered.

AIS could be useful, from a pure interest point of view but also so others can see you and where you've been ( hopefully not the wife&#128514 As regards Radar I've been looking at the Lowrance 3G/4G broadband which according to Lowrance is very safe from an emissions perspective and actually 5 times better than a mobile phone. Saying that I agree it is more nice to have opposed to need, but using the boat for night passages and have travelled from Penzance to Scilly in thick fog across the Lands End TSS , both AIS and radar could be useful!

I suppose the other safety device beyond all the electronic aids is always to wear life jackets and use the kill cord! The lifeboat (and helicopter) on Scilly was out twice this summer to rescue people who had been thrown out of their boats not wearing life jackets and using their kill cords- one family are extremely luck to be alive!

[Pikey Dave]

Having had both radar & AIS, if I had to, I would choose AIS over radar. Radar is only as good as the operator & needs to be higher than can usually be achieved in a RIB to be effective. A custom tower or A frame is really needed to make it worthwhile.



Lions led by donkeys

[jwalker]

I'm the opposite to PD. I have both radar and AIS but would choose radar every time. I don't find operating the radar at all difficult and it is the only device which actually shows you what is out there. If a boat does not have an AIS tranmitter or it is off or transmitting incorrect info (which they do) you won't know. If in fog, you need to know what is around you so you know what you may crash into rather than only considering avoiding what might crash into you. Also, I've been in situations in a fog where the chart is wrong or where a buoy is off station - the radar lets you look carfully at your surroundings to determine where you actually are. In good visability I often see boats on the radar long before I spot them by eye. Even small targets can be seen, birds, creel pot markers, logs etc. and at night spotting a creel buoy is defo worth knowing about.

[JohnnyMW]

Originally Posted by jwalker

I'm the opposite to PD. I have both radar and AIS but would choose radar every time. I don't find operating the radar at all difficult and it is the only device which actually shows you what is out there. If a boat does not have an AIS tranmitter or it is off or transmitting incorrect info (which they do) you won't know. If in fog, you need to know what is around you so you know what you may crash into rather than only considering avoiding what might crash into you. Also, I've been in situations in a fog where the chart is wrong or where a buoy is off station - the radar lets you look carfully at your surroundings to determine where you actually are. In good visability I often see boats on the radar long before I spot them by eye. Even small targets can be seen, birds, creel pot markers, logs etc. and at night spotting a creel buoy is defo worth knowing about.

I think these are very much the reasons Why I have been. Onside ring radar - at night and in fog. I have had one situation where I came across an uncharted ledge at night which may have been different had I been using radar. Do you have yours mounted like PD? Or just on the A frame?