Radar reflectors

Uh Oh · 01 February 2020, 11:52

Ive been looking at radar reflectors to satisfy the requirements of SOLAS V. My objective is to be compliant. Given what we do/where we go/when we go out, with other equipment we carry, and an active watch, I dont have undue concerns about currently not having one. (Short of a series of unlikely coincidences - and I dont worry about a comet hitting me). But I still want to be legally compliant. And of course, if I'm going to spend money, the equipment might as well have a chance of working.

I thought I would post links to information I've found helpful.

Firstly:

https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2007-Radar-Reflector-Test.pdf

What is really interesting is the effect of heel on performance. If your looking at a reflector as a safety device rather than a way of satisfying the law. So the tube reflector I was thinking of was excellent at 0 degrees. But fell away dramatically at 1 degree or more!

(The ISO test standards, with which radar reflectors must comply, are ISO 8729-2:2009(Active) and ISO 8729-1:2010 (Passive)). * *

Secondly:

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/safe-boating/look-after-yourself/equipment-for-uk-pleasure-vessels/Pages/radar-reflectors.aspx

Particularly, from the RYA - MCA quoted advice:

"Passive radar reflectors built to the current standard (few, if any, are available) are often too large to be practically fitted to smaller vessels and it is with this in mind that the MCA have issued their guidance. They consider it to be feasible for vessels of 15m and over to fit radar reflectors that comply with the standard, but advise that vessels of under 15m in length should fit a radar reflector with the greatest echoing area practicable".

I have concluded that for my personal circumstances, I cant afford an active system, given my perception of the risk. And that anything short of that has shortcomings. So I'm going to buy a Trem folding metal reflector, which will be kept stowed on board. With a procedure for using it this will make me compliant. (Having it permanently fitted is only a recommendation). And if circumstances dictate, I will fit it. I think this type has just as much chance, if not better than a tube or similar. In the tests in the link above, even the bigger, more expensive options were fallible.

It will be different for others in different circumstances, of course.

For comparison and FYI we have a 5M rib and do mostly south Devon estuary or close inshore boating on ideal weather days only. And with radio, flares, secondary means of propulsion, appropriate anchor, charts, etc etc etc.
I do hope this is of some use to anyone else in a similar position to me who is having similar thoughts.

lakelandterrier · 01 February 2020, 12:25

My understanding - I'm sure to be corrected

is that SOLAS V reg 19 para 2.1.7 requires vessels if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practicable to fit a radar reflector.

You can argue how effective it might be if heeling, and how high above waves etc, but a rib should not heel excessively. If it might help a larger or other vessel detect you then I'd say it worth having - regulation or not!

I have a tri-lens fitted to the top of my A-frame - it is not bulky, makes me compliant, and just might help identify me as a vessel to other craft fitted with radar when I need it

If your rib has an A-frame, arguably there is no practicable reason not to fit a reflector.

Another way to make yourself visible to others would be AIS.

I note your intended boating area is inshore / estuary,so that may factor in your decision / risk assessment. All I'll say is I'm more confident from having one fitted.

Sounds like you have all the est of the safety equipment nailed

Uh Oh · 01 February 2020, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

My understanding - I'm sure to be corrected

is that SOLAS V reg 19 para 2.1.7 requires vessels if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practicable to fit a radar reflector.

You can argue how effective it might be if heeling, and how high above waves etc, but a rib should not heel excessively. If it might help a larger or other vessel detect you then I'd say it worth having - regulation or not!

I have a tri-lens fitted to the top of my A-frame - it is not bulky, makes me compliant, and just might help identify me as a vessel to other craft fitted with radar when I need it

If your rib has an A-frame, arguably there is no practicable reason not to fit a reflector.

Another way to make yourself visible to others would be AIS.

I note your intended boating area is inshore / estuary,so that may factor in your decision / risk assessment. All I'll say is I'm more confident from having one fitted.

Sounds like you have all the est of the safety equipment nailed

Hi and thanks for joining im. May I just clarify a few points please. Regarding heeling, the report was saying that on the tube version a mere one degree heel had a significant impact. And its recommended that you fit, rather than simply carry it. Which appears to suggest you have the choice.

mikehhogg · 01 February 2020, 16:40

passive radar reflectors are cheap and cheerful but about as useful as the male nipple. If your going to fit one and money is not an object then fit the active one. I myself have a passive one due to money constraints

Uh Oh · 01 February 2020, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikehhogg

passive radar reflectors are cheap and cheerful but about as useful as the male nipple. If your going to fit one and money is not an object then fit the active one. I myself have a passive one due to money constraints

👍 me too.

Uh Oh · 01 February 2020, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

My understanding - I'm sure to be corrected

is that SOLAS V reg 19 para 2.1.7 requires vessels if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practicable to fit a radar reflector.

You can argue how effective it might be if heeling, and how high above waves etc, but a rib should not heel excessively. If it might help a larger or other vessel detect you then I'd say it worth having - regulation or not!

I have a tri-lens fitted to the top of my A-frame - it is not bulky, makes me compliant, and just might help identify me as a vessel to other craft fitted with radar when I need it

If your rib has an A-frame, arguably there is no practicable reason not to fit a reflector.

Another way to make yourself visible to others would be AIS.

I note your intended boating area is inshore / estuary,so that may factor in your decision / risk assessment. All I'll say is I'm more confident from having one fitted.

Sounds like you have all the est of the safety equipment nailed

Further to your reply, I've been looking further and found this, which I'm interested in. Is this what you've got please? It looks like it may be the answer for me, if I can figure out how to attach it to the A frame.

charliee · 02 February 2020, 07:45

Uh On, what have you found, no link?
Thanks

RickW · 02 February 2020, 07:54

I don’t think tri lens radar reflectors are made anymore

Last Tango · 02 February 2020, 08:11

If it's the kind of tube reflector I'm thinking of they come in two models. On has a deck mounting bracket and the other guides on either end for attaching to the mast rigging of a sail boat.
Unfortunately the debate over how effective they are is overshadowed by how fragile the deck mount is. I've had two of them break and the reflectors disappear into the briny.
I've got another one lying in the garage but until I've got time to fabricate a better way of mounting it, that's where it'll stay.

RickW · 02 February 2020, 08:53

Currently I am in the why bother if you have AIS frame of mind

Uh Oh · 02 February 2020, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliee

Uh On, what have you found, no link?
Thanks

I was referring to the tri lens. But I've since realised that the manufacturer doesnt make them anymore.

They got really good results, relatively, and so where worth having. Small too and ideal for the top of the A frame without it looking like an oil drum.
Here is an image. If anyone knows of anything similar I would be ever so grateful please. Otherwise it's a trem for me.

Uh Oh · 02 February 2020, 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Tango

If it's the kind of tube reflector I'm thinking of they come in two models. On has a deck mounting bracket and the other guides on either end for attaching to the mast rigging of a sail boat.
Unfortunately the debate over how effective they are is overshadowed by how fragile the deck mount is. I've had two of them break and the reflectors disappear into the briny.
I've got another one lying in the garage but until I've got time to fabricate a better way of mounting it, that's where it'll stay.

Good point about the bracket. I thought that. May I suggest you consider using something like stanchion brackets to connect it at either end to your A frame vertically. 2 stanchion brackets and possibly something stainless in between. A little like the hatch version which has a type shackle fitting. I hope that makes sense! Look here for ss or possibly nylon attachments
http://m.seascrew.com/?l=0000000175

In the report in the link in my OP, the plastimo tube version came out poorly. Virtually no better than not having one. Same result in many other tests. Dont see the point in paying out for something that probably wont work? Hence why I was thinking of the foldaway ones for compliance and insurance purposes. Dont get me wrong, if I was boating in the solent, the channel or the Irish sea I would spend out for active. But in the Kingsbridge estuary. Really?

Pikey Dave · 02 February 2020, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uh Oh

I was referring to the tri lens. But I've since realised that the manufacturer doesnt make them anymore.

They got really good results, relatively, and so where worth having. Small too and ideal for the top of the A frame without it looking like an oil drum.

Here is an image. If anyone knows of anything similar I would be ever so grateful please. Otherwise it's a trem for me.

Basically, when it comes to passive Radar reflectors, size & height matters. The Plastimo tube type are only good for ticking a box, they are functionally worthless. The Echomax 230 is about as good as you’ll (currently) get for a RIB, even then they aren’t perfect. If you really want to light up the other blokes Radar, then active is the way to go. But then you have to put your hand in your pocket.

Uh Oh · 02 February 2020, 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

Basically, when it comes to passive Radar reflectors, size & height matters. The Plastimo tube type are only good for ticking a box, they are functionally worthless. The Echomax 230 is about as good as you’ll (currently) get for a RIB, even then they aren’t perfect. If you really want to light up the other blokes Radar, then active is the way to go. But then you have to put your hand in your pocket.

Absolutely.

Uh Oh · 02 February 2020, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uh Oh

Good point about the bracket. I thought that. May I suggest you consider using something like stanchion brackets to connect it at either end to your A frame vertically. 2 stanchion brackets and possibly something stainless in between. A little like the hatch version which has a type shackle fitting. I hope that makes sense! Look here for ss or possibly nylon attachments
http://m.seascrew.com/?l=0000000175

In the report in the link in my OP, the plastimo tube version came out poorly. Virtually no better than not having one. Same result in many other tests. Dont see the point in paying out for something that probably wont work? Hence why I was thinking of the foldaway ones for compliance and insurance purposes. Dont get me wrong, if I was boating in the solent, the channel or the Irish sea I would spend out for active. But in the Kingsbridge estuary. Really?

Last Tango
Here is an image of a fitting which may better explain what I was trying to!