Re-fitting our Humber Ocean Pro 6.3

[GuyC]

I'm probably the odd one out but I've used epoxy on the limited GRP work that I've carried out on mine.

If you do use epoxy, you can't necessarily use the same CSM as you do for polyester as the epoxy does not break the binder down in the CSM.

Preparation is key regardless of which system you use.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by GuyC

I'm probably the odd one out but I've used epoxy on the limited GRP work that I've carried out on mine.

If you do use epoxy, you can't necessarily use the same CSM as you do for polyester as the epoxy does not break the binder down in the CSM.

Preparation is key regardless of which system you use.

Thanks Guy, that might be why I’ve read that lower weight straw matting is generally used with epoxy, woven roving seems to be ok with it too. I read somewhere that epoxy doesn’t take gel coat as well?

[beamishken]

It is said that polyester doesn't bond as well as epoxy however once the origional surfaces are ground up with rough disks it should stick fine. Id definitely use polyester myself, cheaper , easier to use & as has already been said the material of choice for most builders so cant be that bad.

[xpertski]

So folks - slow slow progress on this project, but progress nonetheless.

Any thoughts on the below? I have created an inner flange to the bottom of the console which firstly much strengthens the bottom of the console and also enables me to put some sikaflex on the underside of that flange for additional adhesion. I will then fibreglass down on the outside bottom edge as per previous posts. My question is how best to resolve a slight rock in the console presumably from a slightly not level floor? The options as I see it are:

1) sikaflex as planned under the flange then once that has cured presumably the slight rocking will not happen, then to put some fibreglass with resin stuffed under the edges that must have a bit of a gap to fill them, which presumably when cured would be solid as a rock. Then fibreglass to deck around outside bottom edge.
2) find out the side with a gap, turn upside down then apply a layer of two of fibreglass those bottom parts of the flange to build it up and once cured hopefully it will stop the rock. Then right the console to see if it still rocks. Perhaps harder to get accurate as I see much to and fro adding more here and there until it’s level. Then sikaflex and fibreglass to deck as 1) above.

I’m leaning towards 1) as it seems easier to get right to me perhaps. In any event it will be glassed around the whole bottom edge so presumably that will resolve any unevenness anyway.

Thanks all!!

[jeffstevens763@g]

personally i would set it down on chopped strand matt well wetted then a bead of sika inside as a waterproof seal and to finish it off

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

personally i would set it down on chopped strand matt well wetted then a bead of sika inside as a waterproof seal and to finish it off

Thanks Jeff, yes thought about setting it down on wetted chopped strand, using the fibreglass as an adhesive under the flange, though wondered if that might be “too permanent”. If the console were ever to be removed it would then involve cutting the outer fibreglass strips at the bottom edge then cutting under the flange (which would be harder with fibreglass than sikaflex) - though perhaps that level of permanence isn’t a bad thing.

Can’t put a bead of sika on the inside edge unfortunately as once it’s down there won’t be room inside to do it with the fuel tank etc in place.

Under the flange it’s either sikaflex or fibreglass (fibreglass would be stronger I guess - wonder if one is better than the other to sort any unevenness, perhaps much of a muchness), there would be a fibreglass strip bonding console to floor around outside bottom edge regardless to secure it down fully.

I’m pondering is how best to resolve the rocking caused by some unevenness. Perhaps I’m overthinking and should just fit it down, fill any gaps then fibreglass around the bottom edge to finish it.

[jeffstevens763@g]

fair comment, when i removed my seat bases they were sikaflex with screws took the screws out i thought it would just prize off, no i had to make wood wedges and use a multi tool to cut the sika took me half a day for each seat being careful off course so its good enough with the glass round IMO

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

fair comment, when i removed my seat bases they were sikaflex with screws took the screws out i thought it would just prize off, no i had to make wood wedges and use a multi tool to cut the sika took me half a day for each seat being careful off course so its good enough with the glass round IMO

Haha yes I have experienced that when taking the old furniture off - you take the screws off and think it would at least pry off - I used a multi tool to get it off had to machine cut using that tool al around the underside of the flanges, took ages as you say!

You think the glassing around the outside bottom is sufficient then to address any rocking that I notice now before the console is fixed down properly?

[jeffstevens763@g]

you have to address the rocking IMO a good sound footing is needed the outer glassing will allow resin to migrate under the lip so if you don't want that bed on sika the only other way is to use filler and make two level faces. but if you cant glass from the inside as well you need all the help you can from the base joint

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

you have to address the rocking IMO a good sound footing is needed the outer glassing will allow resin to migrate under the lip so if you don't want that bed on sika the only other way is to use filler and make two level faces. but if you cant glass from the inside as well you need all the help you can from the base joint

Hi Jeff, yeah absolutely agree. Hmmm Sika or fibreglass under the flange hmmm - might have to flip a coin! Both should even out the slight unevenness. Then with glass on the outside edge will be belt and braces.

[GuyC]

If you use Sika 292i, that is the structural adhesive and as Jeff will testify, it is a permanent bond and with the surface area you have you could probably lift the boat with it. If you go down the Sika route, put a bead of Sika 295 around the outside once the 292 has cured. 295 doesn't react to UV whereas 292 does over time.

I tend to put a couple of self tappers in to stop the thing you are gluing from gently sliding downhill whilst the Sika is going off.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by GuyC

If you use Sika 292i, that is the structural adhesive and as Jeff will testify, it is a permanent bond and with the surface area you have you could probably lift the boat with it. If you go down the Sika route, put a bead of Sika 295 around the outside once the 292 has cured. 295 doesn't react to UV whereas 292 does over time.

I tend to put a couple of self tappers in to stop the thing you are gluing from gently sliding downhill whilst the Sika is going off.

Thanks Guy, I guess if I use 292i under the flange and then layers of fibreglass around the outside bottom edge of the console I wouldn’t need to put a bead of 295UV. Probably belt and braces (292 discolours with the sun or becomes brittle?). I’ve also ordered some sika multi primer marine which seems to be need first on both surfaces. The 292i seems to have good filling capabilities as well so think that will sort out any slight rocking.

[xpertski]

Mercury Smartcraft - does anyone have diagrams/lists of all the smartcraft items I should have to connect up my 2006 Mercury Optimax 175? I am trying to do a checklist and find out what they look like - I suspect i’m short of a couple of things. And perhaps any diagrams that show what connects to what? I’ve asked Barrus but waiting for a reply. Thank you again fantastic RibNetters!

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by xpertski

Hi Jeff, yeah absolutely agree. Hmmm Sika or fibreglass under the flange hmmm - might have to flip a coin! Both should even out the slight unevenness. Then with glass on the outside edge will be belt and braces.

yep the glass will hold it firm on the outside a nice coat of flow-coat will make it look the dogs and waterproof it too. guy reminded me when i stuck my seat bases down which were aluminium I had locating pegs so I didn't have to slide them into position leaving the base weight to lower down onto the sika so i didn't press down squeezing too much sika out creating high spots and potential gaps, when it was cured then I screwed them down [external lip]

[gtflash]

I’ve only just read this post, great progress. have thought about weight distribution port/starboard. A conventional engine will likely make your boat lean port on acceleration, counter acting that with batteries, oil and helm on starboard is a simple solution.

Did you choose epoxy or polyester. Remember it is tricky to get flowcoat to stick to epoxy. It will likely pickle and peel off. Although I have been successful a few times. Using csm with epoxy is sometimes frowned upon as the binder in csm doesn’t always breakdown with epoxy and the inferior material seems pointless with the superior resin. I’d use a bi-axial cloth if choosing epoxy but more sanding of edges might be required. Polyester is fine though with good prep. My console is epoxy bonded and then filleted with sealant around the outside I wish I had used polyester, a nice cabosil fillet then csm over bonded to stop cracking, followed by flow coating I have never been pleased With the fillet, any sealant that breaks down in UV or isn’t mould resistant will age and deteriorate so be careful on your choice or you will be renewing it every few seasons.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by gtflash

I’ve only just read this post, great progress. have thought about weight distribution port/starboard. A conventional engine will likely make your boat lean port on acceleration, counter acting that with batteries, oil and helm on starboard is a simple solution.

Did you choose epoxy or polyester. Remember it is tricky to get flowcoat to stick to epoxy. It will likely pickle and peel off. Although I have been successful a few times. Using csm with epoxy is sometimes frowned upon as the binder in csm doesn’t always breakdown with epoxy and the inferior material seems pointless with the superior resin. I’d use a bi-axial cloth if choosing epoxy but more sanding of edges might be required. Polyester is fine though with good prep. My console is epoxy bonded and then filleted with sealant around the outside I wish I had used polyester, a nice cabosil fillet then csm over bonded to stop cracking, followed by flow coating I have never been pleased With the fillet, any sealant that breaks down in UV or isn’t mould resistant will age and deteriorate so be careful on your choice or you will be renewing it every few seasons.

Hi there, thanks! Yes thought about positioning the console a smidge to starboard, the old console was marginally closer to starboard as fitted by Humber so may do that by an inch. How much to starboard I’m not sure but I don’t think I’ll move it that way much.

I’ve been using polyester resin for ease of use, cost and for the reason you mention regarding flowcoat. Plan on outside edge is three layers of glass, csm - bi-axial tape - csm then maybe tissue you finish (though a shop recently suggested finishing with tape to get a nicer finish ...). Then it will be flowcoated over the top to give a smooth clean finish.

I’m now trying to make sense of all the smartcraft wiring to make sure anything else that needs to go under deck does so before I fix the console down and make it harder to do! Got three tubes of Sika 292i (expensive stuff!) so ready to fix hopefully this weekend - oh and fit two new Wema senders to my fuel tank in more accessible locations than the current manufacturer sender. Will post pictures when I’ve done that as will be a little milestone for me and I can then measure for the flexi teak.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

yep the glass will hold it firm on the outside a nice coat of flow-coat will make it look the dogs and waterproof it too. guy reminded me when i stuck my seat bases down which were aluminium I had locating pegs so I didn't have to slide them into position leaving the base weight to lower down onto the sika so i didn't press down squeezing too much sika out creating high spots and potential gaps, when it was cured then I screwed them down [external lip]

Yes good idea - I can probably do that with the seats. Though it gives me an idea - I could drill a couple small holes in the flange for a couple guiding rods as well for the console to help with the same.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by xpertski

...(292 discolours with the sun or becomes brittle?). ....

I think over time, the 292 that is affected by UV starts to break down. It wouldn't affect the joint all the way through, just any fillet that you put round the edge, hence the 295 suggestion.

I tend to use UK Sealants for any Sikaflex etc. You have to be slightly careful if you get them from Ebay that they are in date. It is written somewhere on the tube. Having said that I've used two years out of date Sika without an apparent issue but not in critical locations.

https://www.uksealants.co.uk/sikafle...e-sealant.html

The Sika Primer is a good idea although it's eyewateringly expensive.

I would probably just go down the Sika route and not combine it with the fibreglass but I understand your belt and braces reasoning.

[xpertski]

Originally Posted by GuyC

I think over time, the 292 that is affected by UV starts to break down. It wouldn't affect the joint all the way through, just any fillet that you put round the edge, hence the 295 suggestion.



I tend to use UK Sealants for any Sikaflex etc. You have to be slightly careful if you get them from Ebay that they are in date. It is written somewhere on the tube. Having said that I've used two years out of date Sika without an apparent issue but not in critical locations.



https://www.uksealants.co.uk/sikafle...e-sealant.html



The Sika Primer is a good idea although it's eyewateringly expensive.



I would probably just go down the Sika route and not combine it with the fibreglass but I understand your belt and braces reasoning.

Thanks, yes I bought three tubes of 292 and one of 295 from UK sealants - should have plenty (bought the primer as well, it is as you say, eye watering expensive!), will use the 292 to bond then fibreglass on outside. Should be able to withstand some abuse on some tough seas then! Thanks for yours and others input, much appreciated!

[GuyC]

The guide is good idea. My self tappers are fine if you pre drill them but if you are slightly out and you have to jiggle it in position to get the self tappers into their holes, it just seems to create a disproportionate amount of mess.

Masking up both the console and the deck helps to minimise the migration of Sika to places you wouldn't have thought possible.